General Discussion

An idea to combat last minute entry winning main prize

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Comments

  • ZaphodZaphod Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭
    I think people are making a bigger deal of this than it actually is. It’s not like this is an automatic exploit for tier 1 prizes; you need to be very lucky to end up in an empty bracket.

    Anyway; I’s simply suggest not creating new brackets after a certain time limit (15 minutes left in event or so); Entries after this are still allowed but late joiners would only go to brackets where there is space, and if all brackets are full new entries are no longer accepted. This would prevent the issue of having new brackets created and not filled at the end of the event with minimum amount of effect on event rules.
  • vossixvossix Member Posts: 399 ✭✭✭✭
    TD42792 said:
    Because you would still get the same issue: people join late right before the deadline and hope to be in a newly opened bracket (at the cut off time) with no competition. Does not solve the problem.
    That’s right.

    Then must Hutch do all brackets in there under 250 players put together to a full bracket after closing.
    So all players must play minimal 24 hours.

    I know. It is not easy to manage.
  • vencavenca Member Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited June 2018
    And what if all players dont know the time when event ends? It could be solution..

    for example event can run from 2 to 3 days and it nobody knows exact time of ending.
  • CharlieRCharlieR Member Posts: 498 ✭✭✭✭
    venca said:
    And what if all players dont know the time when event ends? It could be solution..

    for example event can run from 2 to 3 days and it nobody knows exact time of ending.
    that is an awesome idea - would change game play totally 
  • 43MK443MK4 Member Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018

    We got a nice reply from @Hutch_Robin earlier in the thread saying:

    "Stop people joining in the last x hours - if it's the last 3 hours, you'll still get late entry at that point of 10-15 races, if it's much larger than that, lots of more casual players miss out."

    I believe this would really help the problem (and YES I think there is a problem, with allowing players late entires).

    Its a simple solution, 3-6 hours sounds like a nice time to set a cut off for joining an event.

    Easy to implement without taking a chance for casual players to join in.

  • AvengedAvenged Member Posts: 356 ✭✭✭
    adms87 said:
    Closing brackets it's not a good idea because it may still leave brackets with few players. I think the best solution is to stop creating new brackets after x hours and then new players only enter until all brackets are full. After that no new players are aloud to enter.
    This sounds like the best compromise so far. Rather than stopping new entries, you stop bracket creation after half the proposed event runtime has lapsed. New players enter existing brackets until all are full. Then no new entries. Want to be assured of a place? Enter early. Want to enter right on the dot of half-time? Well, perhaps there is only 1 bracket left unfilled at 495 spots taken. You battle it out with however many other late joines there are for the last 5 spots. No whining if you join too late and miss the event.
  • grandvachegrandvache Member Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The ideas that I find most compelling are:

    To close event entry early: this can't be done at the same time for every event otherwise you're just moving the problem back, but you could randomise so that the event closes to new entries at a random time within the last 1-2 hours.  The problem with this is that it wouldn't eliminate the problem entirely, but would minimise it, it would be MUCH harder to enter in the last 3-4 minutes this way.

    Restrict prize cars to those who have done at least XX races: hutch will have the data to inform what X would be.  I'm not sure that this idea has any significant downsides tbh.

    Fewer brackets with dynamic sizes and adjustable tiers is an idea I'm not keen on, other people have given good reasons above, but one reason that I don't think has been mentioned is that it would nerf the tactical dynamic that "important" events have.  

    The cars I chose the max in the 918 event were determined by the hands of players around me, allowing me to best counter their hands.  With expanding brackets and % based tiers I think you would just be maxing the most powerful cars rather than playing this more sophisticated and more interesting meta game.

    I might be wrong on that.

    % based hands would also reduce the element of luck that f2p players like myself depend on (yay I got an easier bracket) and make it very hard to help out other players which is like it or not a key part of our community.  I don't want to re-open that can of worms, but on a smaller scale I think the ability to boost freinds is another interesting and challenging meta game that TD would be poorer without.

    The idea of increasing the gold cost of buying tickets logarithmicly has been mooted as a method of preventing "mass boosting" ... It might also have applications here, albeit less significantly.
  • hillclimberhillclimber Member Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    hmm... have we ever talked about the option of just making one, a very big one, bracket per server region? is it technical possible?  because if it is it would solve all the problems and I couldn't see any downside. in fact that would be quite exciting to see all the players in one event.
  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Administrator, Hutch Staff Posts: 814 admin
    hmm... have we ever talked about the option of just making one, a very big one, bracket per server region? is it technical possible?  because if it is it would solve all the problems and I couldn't see any downside. in fact that would be quite exciting to see all the players in one event.
    Yes, I referred to it in the first reply to this thread.

    "The gap between prize tiers would be so wide, and players would be gaining and losing places constantly. We're looking to have more prize tiers eventually, so that more players can strive for better prizes, this goes in the opposite direction."
  • vossixvossix Member Posts: 399 ✭✭✭✭
    hmm... have we ever talked about the option of just making one, a very big one, bracket per server region? is it technical possible?  because if it is it would solve all the problems and I couldn't see any downside. in fact that would be quite exciting to see all the players in one event.
    You talk about brackets with 50 thousand, 100 thousand or more player.
  • BugattiBugatti Member Posts: 3,548 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    How about if you join late in event, last hour or two there is a -1000 point penalty and in order to claim a tier 1 reward, you must have positive points! So even if the bracket is empty they will still have to work for it  :D :p  
  • hillclimberhillclimber Member Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hmm... have we ever talked about the option of just making one, a very big one, bracket per server region? is it technical possible?  because if it is it would solve all the problems and I couldn't see any downside. in fact that would be quite exciting to see all the players in one event.
    Yes, I referred to it in the first reply to this thread.

    "The gap between prize tiers would be so wide, and players would be gaining and losing places constantly. We're looking to have more prize tiers eventually, so that more players can strive for better prizes, this goes in the opposite direction."
    okay, after carefully thinking about it, I think I understand now. by just winning or losing one race players would jump up and down like crazy in ranking. this would interfere with your plan to have more price tiers. a player mind over jump a entire rank.
  • hillclimberhillclimber Member Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    vossix said:
    hmm... have we ever talked about the option of just making one, a very big one, bracket per server region? is it technical possible?  because if it is it would solve all the problems and I couldn't see any downside. in fact that would be quite exciting to see all the players in one event.
    You talk about brackets with 50 thousand, 100 thousand or more player.
    is this you estimation or do you have data for this numbers? if there would have been 50'000 players on one server, than that would mean there were 100 full brackets, or not full ones even more.  I can't imagine we had this number in Europe. don't want to speculate about other regions.
  • GsearchGsearch Member, Administrator, Wrenchmen, Senior Wrenchmen Posts: 2,339 admin
    Well, world wide there are 3,800,000 forum users. So no numbers in the game would shock me.
  • hillclimberhillclimber Member Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gsearch said:
    Well, world wide there are 3,800,000 forum users. So no numbers in the game would shock me.
    what, 5 Million simple downloads of the app ~3 months ago and now 3,8 Million registered forum users here?! the in game name list seems not to reflect that.
  • GsearchGsearch Member, Administrator, Wrenchmen, Senior Wrenchmen Posts: 2,339 admin
    I have an idea that needs work to combat this issue:

    If you join in an event in towards the end (insert time until end here) then your first X races (insert number of initial races here) will be against the top X (insert number of leaders here) people in that bracket.

    In my opinion (insert dislikes now) The outcome would be that the player either beats those hands and therefore DESERVES to be toward the top, or they lose those races and start with a negative score and are placed in the bracket where their score puts them.

    Either way, win or lose, after those initial races they go into the bracket where there score puts them.  You could even make the point from those races different in order to come up with a balance.  Lie each race is worth +10 or  -10.  Even if they win all X races they would have 30ish points and be placed accordingly therefore having to race their way to the top.   If they lose they have a negative number that is not insurmountable to compete to get to the level they would probably be at if they started at a reasonable time.

    I think this would also be, in effect, fair to players who were not intending on joining late but just couldn't get into the event earlier.

    I have in mind:  Last hour/4 hours from end/ 8 hours from end/ last day (long events).

    I do not claim this to be a solution, just an idea to maybe work from to find a solution.

  • ppedrasppedras Member Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭✭
    hmm... have we ever talked about the option of just making one, a very big one, bracket per server region? is it technical possible?  because if it is it would solve all the problems and I couldn't see any downside. in fact that would be quite exciting to see all the players in one event.
    Yes, I referred to it in the first reply to this thread.

    "The gap between prize tiers would be so wide, and players would be gaining and losing places constantly. We're looking to have more prize tiers eventually, so that more players can strive for better prizes, this goes in the opposite direction."
    But there wouldn’t be a reduction of prizes. With the % of prizes per Tier that would be dynamic. In a normal 500 people bracket there is 16% that get Tier 1, the top 8. In a single dynamic bracket as more players joined the bracket more top players would win Tier 1, but the % would always be 16% of the total people. Basically the same that already win.
  • vossixvossix Member Posts: 399 ✭✭✭✭
    vossix said:
    hmm... have we ever talked about the option of just making one, a very big one, bracket per server region? is it technical possible?  because if it is it would solve all the problems and I couldn't see any downside. in fact that would be quite exciting to see all the players in one event.
    You talk about brackets with 50 thousand, 100 thousand or more player.
    is this you estimation or do you have data for this numbers? if there would have been 50'000 players on one server, than that would mean there were 100 full brackets, or not full ones even more.  I can't imagine we had this number in Europe. don't want to speculate about other regions.
    No I have no data. This data only knows Hutch. 
    But i think depending on the server  the numbers are reached.
    Top drive is popular. And many people play they never here or in IG forum write.
    To the data must say Hutch anything.
  • grandvachegrandvache Member Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gsearch said:
    I have an idea that needs work to combat this issue:

    If you join in an event in towards the end (insert time until end here) then your first X races (insert number of initial races here) will be against the top X (insert number of leaders here) people in that bracket.

    In my opinion (insert dislikes now) The outcome would be that the player either beats those hands and therefore DESERVES to be toward the top, or they lose those races and start with a negative score and are placed in the bracket where their score puts them.

    Either way, win or lose, after those initial races they go into the bracket where there score puts them.  You could even make the point from those races different in order to come up with a balance.  Lie each race is worth +10 or  -10.  Even if they win all X races they would have 30ish points and be placed accordingly therefore having to race their way to the top.   If they lose they have a negative number that is not insurmountable to compete to get to the level they would probably be at if they started at a reasonable time.

    I think this would also be, in effect, fair to players who were not intending on joining late but just couldn't get into the event earlier.

    I have in mind:  Last hour/4 hours from end/ 8 hours from end/ last day (long events).

    I do not claim this to be a solution, just an idea to maybe work from to find a solution.

    I think that's an interesting idea.

    Not sure it combats the problem of people hitting a brand new bracket right at the end and getting a great car with a lame hand, but it's an interesting idea.
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But there wouldn’t be a reduction of prizes. With the % of prizes per Tier that would be dynamic. In a normal 500 people bracket there is 16% that get Tier 1, the top 8. In a single dynamic bracket as more players joined the bracket more top players would win Tier 1, but the % would always be 16% of the total people. Basically the same that already win.

    Unfortunately, it's actually 1.6%. i think this number could be increased a bit though, because the top 8 number takes into account that brackets might not fill up. 

    But even there, lies a big problem with the current system. A full bracket means only 1.6% get tier 1. A half full bracket means 3.2% win tier 1. That is a 100% increase in chances. 

    A dynamically expanding bracket would mean the best garages would rise to the top, amd the worst stay near the bottom.

    If the placement rankings jump too much @Hutch_Robin, maybe a reduced point allocation for each win/loss would combat the issue.

    Still, there doesn't seem to be a perfect solution yet. But the discourse here is very encouraging. 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There was an idea in an old thread, whereby a loss doesn't subtract from your total. Only wins contribute. That way earlier joiners have an advantage.

    I do see potential issues with this idea, on its own. Maybe incorporating a point system change would help to combat very late joining desirability.
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How about a point system where points are full value for the first X hours, last Y hours points are lesser value. 

    Incorporate that with a space reservation in all brackets that allows for expansion of the last tier group, but doesn't increase prizes at the top

    The idea being that active players will have been playing for a couple of days and proper placement in the table. Late comers will join existing brackets because they expand enough to let them in, but the points won in the last few hours are worth less so they are unable to utilise the advantage of nobody being able to race them. 

    The servers (might possibly?) Have an easier time because people aren't bouncing up and down the table.

    Casual players who aren't really shooting for the top won't mind because the tier group expanding at the bottom allows more players to win the lesser prize, but doesn't affect their own.

    I.e.

    Tier 1: 1-8
    Tier 2: 9-40
    Tier 3: 41-80
    Tier 4: 81-300
    Tier 5: 301-X 

    Points worth 18/15 for first 60 hours
    Points worth 9/6 for last 12 hours


  • dunowedunowe Member Posts: 469 ✭✭✭
    After reading through the whole discussion, i like the suggestion of @Zaphod ; and @adms87 (echoed by @Avenged ) the most:
    Not creating new brackets after a certain time limit , but i would set this at 3 hours before the end, to minimize the "damage" to the casual players.
    Entries after this are still allowed but late joiners would only go to brackets where there is space, and if all brackets are full new entries are no longer accepted.
    (copy pasting, only adjusted the 3 hour limit)

    It is not a big difference with what we have now (all other suggestions are far more differt, would need a lot of explanation) and seems rather simple to implement too.


    @RobGripes

    PS: i have late entered on quite a few occasions, but never last minute (or even last hour) entry, i agreed with that is part of the current strategy, i can relate with @sinner very much: i also come prepared with a decent (and upgraded) hand, but being F2P, never a killer hand.
    In the Porsche event i got tier 2, but no chance at the 918.
  • ZumZum Member Posts: 70 ✭✭
    Another idea: It simply has to be more attractive to join the events early and to play as much as  possible. What if you give a donation for every race, that a player participated at. I would suggest, that the player can choose between 5 Gold or 500 bucks for each race that he ran including the races he participated at passivly. So the player gets a reward for playing a lot and joining the events early. And you get a little reward even if you loose a race against people with a better hand. It will be more attractive to join early than to join late then.
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