General Discussion

Physics simulation - fixes with PL7.5

Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Administrator, Hutch Staff Posts: 396 admin

Yep, it's happening. First, a recap:

What changed with PL7
We fixed ‘Upgraded car loses’!
Even after the fix from early 2018, there were still cases where a more upgraded car could lose against a less upgraded version. The AI now drives more optimally, so an upgrade is always better than no upgrade (if you see different, let us know). This change also altered which tuning is best for some cars on some tracks, as previously a sub-optimal AI would mean a different tune had an advantage.

We fixed heavier cars winning hill climbs
Heavier cars were quicker up hills, which was incorrect. This is fixed, so now being lighter (by upgrading weight, or picking a lighter car) is an advantage in climbing a hill. As a knock-on effect, this made it more obvious that 4WD/performance-tire cars have too much traction vs 4WD/all-surface-tire cars. 

We also made hills more realistic… maybe too realistic
Before PL7, the physics simulation effectively modelled the hills as significantly less steep than they appeared in game. This was fixed, so hills became as steep as they actually look, which is extremely steep compared to real-world roads - we’re talking gradients of 60%! This had the effect of some cars no longer being able to get up hills they used to be able to.


What is coming in PL7.5
Traction changes
As noted above, the fix to make heavier cars slower up hills revealed a long-standing but previously more hidden issue: 4WD PER/STD tire cars have too much traction, and 4WD OFF tire cars should have more traction, compared to 4WD All-Surface.

Cars with 4WD and PER/STD tires will now have less traction (with the exception of wet asphalt where 4WD/STD will get very slightly better)
Cars with 4WD and Off-road tires will now have more traction (with the exception of wet asphalt where 4WD/OFF will get very slightly worse, and gravel where 4W/OFF will not change)

The general rule is that the relative amount of traction you got with different tires on RWD cars will now be a lot more similar when comparing 4WD cars. For example, among RWD cars, those with Performance tires had a lot less traction than those with All-Surface tires, but among 4WD cars the difference was much smaller (and 4WD/PER was surprisingly competitive in off-road races as a result). Those 4WD/PER cars will now do worse off-road, as one would have expected.

Traction for all RWD and FWD cars is not changing. Also, traction for 4WD and All-surface tire cars is not changing.


Make hills less steep
We now think the ‘realistic hill’ change went too far, as many cars can no longer make it up hills, and that’s just less fun. Rather than remodelling the dioramas you see in-game to make them flatter, we’re adjusting the physics to treat them as less steep so more cars can make it up them (although still a bit more steep than they used to be).


What should change next?
Upgrade engine to upgrade traction?
Upgrading the engine currently slightly upgrades traction, but the game doesn’t communicate this, and the ‘Race Info’ tips will attribute this to ‘better spec’, which isn’t clear. This produces some strange results. For example, a stock 2016 Camaro Z/28 beats a stock 1970 El Camino SS 454 on the 1/4m on ice, but if the El Camino gets the engine upgraded to 1.3, this gives it enough extra traction to win, which you wouldn’t expect based on the 0-60 time. This effect also has an impact on tuning, making 969 a generally better tune for off-road vehicles, as it grants them more traction than 699. Should we keep this effect and communicate it better? Reduce its effectiveness? Remove it entirely? We really want to know what players think on this before we make any plans.

Diversify tuning?
The differences between tunings on cars are often extremely small, and as a result the intuitive tunes do not always do best. With other major physics issues resolved, we can now consider changing this. We could make different tunes more viable, making for a more interesting late-game with fewer ties and more strategy, and also making the best tunes for each track more intuitive.

However, if we did do this then players with existing tuned cars would in most cases find they are less useful.

Such a change also needs to be considered alongside the above engine-upgrades-traction feature, as that would also alter the best tunes.

So, should we alter how tuning works? If it changes significantly, would we also have to enable a one-off ability to re-tune old cars so players could adapt their old garage to the new system? If we did that, how long should players have to do it, and could they re-tune multiple times? Again, we really want to know what players think about this.

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Comments

  • MettitiMettiti Member Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    someone dumb it down for me please
  • mikesmikes Member Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This all makes sense and is much appreciated. Best of all, most of my data is still in tact. 



  • mikesmikes Member Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20
    Mettiti said:
    someone dumb it down for me please
    Off-road tires, standard tires and performance tires are a more important factor off-road and in the rain than drivetrain (as it should be). 

    Also less cars should DNF on hill climbs (and I assume twisty road as well)
  • Ivo_KamburovIvo_Kamburov Member Posts: 526 ✭✭✭✭
    Remove more Horse Power=more traction 
  • nel1978nel1978 Member Posts: 42 ✭✭
    Can you explain this ?!
  • Blue2moroBlue2moro Member Posts: 256 ✭✭✭
    nel1978 said:
    Can you explain this ?!
    As some devs at work would say, it's an unintended feature.
  • Destroyer2k11999Destroyer2k11999 Member Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Blue2moro said:
    nel1978 said:
    Can you explain this ?!
    As some devs at work would say, it's an unintended feature.
    See they fixed the "less upgraded" cars beating full tuned cars and introduced stock cars winning against more upgrades cars.
  • hifichrishifichris Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    that's not serious.....
  • hifichrishifichris Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    not only legendary and epics !!!
    it's all the game is affected by the changes, each car must be updated !
    The delay might vary in terms of the category
  • SennaSenna Member Posts: 11
    hifichris said:
    not only legendary and epics !!!
    it's all the game is affected by the changes, each car must be updated !
    The delay might vary in terms of the category
    I'm fine with all cars but if Hutch think it's too generous I think Epics and Legendarys enough. The rest can somewhat more easily be obtained again. 
  • hifichrishifichris Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    my silvia 699 doesn't win anything now... it's was my best rally car... even the datsun is better, i can't wait having a second one when I'm a young player against sharks...
  • baestbaest Member Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    Senna said:
    hifichris said:
    not only legendary and epics !!!
    it's all the game is affected by the changes, each car must be updated !
    The delay might vary in terms of the category
    I'm fine with all cars but if Hutch think it's too generous I think Epics and Legendarys enough. The rest can somewhat more easily be obtained again. 
    Not true. The more cars they add to the game, the more inflated packs are. SR and above should be minimum.
  • ljhcjpljhcjp Member Posts: 356 ✭✭✭
    edited November 20
    I must have best guess, over 150 fully upgraded cars. No way I can be **** to tune them all again. 
  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Member Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    hifichris said:
    my silvia 699 doesn't win anything now... it's was my best rally car... even the datsun is better, i can't wait having a second one when I'm a young player against sharks...
    that was always the case. I've had a 699 silvia for over 270 days now and it always lost to 969 datsuns
  • MoogMoog Member Posts: 80 ✭✭✭
    My preference would be to remove the ‘engine mods give traction’ feature, diversify tuning slightly more and give the ability to retune cars (I haven’t given thought to the time period yet...).
    Yes, this will mean peoples spreadsheets are redundant by IMO I’d rather get the game right and not worry about that.
  • ManUtdTobbeManUtdTobbe Member Posts: 755 ✭✭✭✭
    Okay, so with the weird results in the sunshowers event in rain i Think the Engine upgrades give tractions feature needs to be removed... there's no reason an ~RQ20 lightweight twisty car should beat a legendary twisty car just because it's easy to upgrade… This "feature" needs to be gone asap.
  • vladimir1989vladimir1989 Member Posts: 287 ✭✭✭
    Again all corrections come from the forum not from hutch directly.
  • MettitiMettiti Member Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Again all corrections come from the forum not from hutch directly.
    that's why I'm saying they should employ people like mikes 
  • hillclimberhillclimber Member Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mettiti said:
    Again all corrections come from the forum not from hutch directly.
    that's why I'm saying they should employ people like mikes 
    to afford that they would have to increase the gold and CFs price. r u willing to pay the price?
  • 43MK443MK4 Member Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mettiti said:
    Again all corrections come from the forum not from hutch directly.
    that's why I'm saying they should employ people like mikes 
    to afford that they would have to increase the gold and CFs price. r u willing to pay the price?
    Or they could just start printing their own money and pay ppl with that! Oh It’s already been done and is accepted by player base.
  • MettitiMettiti Member Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jiga said:
    Hutch_Tim said:

    What changed with PL7
    We fixed ‘Upgraded car loses’!
    The AI now drives more optimally, so an upgrade is always better than no upgrade (if you see different, let us know). This change also altered which tuning is best for some cars on some tracks, as previously a sub-optimal AI would mean a different tune had an advantage.    ,,,,

    ,,,,Upgrading the engine currently slightly upgrades traction, but the game doesn’t communicate this, and the ‘Race Info’ tips will attribute this to ‘better spec’, which isn’t clear. This produces some strange results. 

    AI now drives more optimally?  pretty loose definition of optimal methinks.  am i right in supposing that this previously little known feature that upgrading engine upgrades traction is essentially the fix for less upgraded cars beating more upgraded or at least part of the fix maybe along with other even less known features?  And this fix is responsible for the situation where a number of cars that prior to PL7 were optimally tuned 033 are now beaten on the tracks best suited to them by 303 tunings?  and this is why i have several epics and ultra-rares at 669 since i don't know if it will stay this way or if sanity will return?

    My technical knowledge of the mechanics involved here is pretty limited but i do know that to accelerate out of corners requires traction, and so better traction means better handling doesn't it?  So seems to me that under the current regime upgrading engine will improve handling beyond what upgrading chassis alone does.  Lets say you tune a car chassis only to 009 and has handling coefficient dsiplayed of 90.  Then you tune engine only and each successive upgrade of the engine will effectively improve the handling beyond the coeff displayed won't it?  (i guess something to do with why grip was replaced by handling).

    Hence on tracks where 033 cars were better before now 303 has become more dominant because 303 is lower 0-60 and has maybe significantly better handling than is displayed on the card.  Lately i have seen that 330 tunings have become more viable than previously, for example the rq6 Alfa Mito 303 comfortably beaten by 330 on wet twisty road.  That doesn't seem right to me.  Engine upgrades seem to be having an over-inflated influence on race dynamics which was not the case prior to PL7.

    I could be completely wrong in all this.  sorry if i am.  My impression is that cracks in the physics engine/AI are being papered over and that the fixes that have been applied have not been adequate because they do not address whatever the root cause of the problem actually is.  
    I really like your break down of how it works and it seems logical . But we can't confirm
    But if you are right, this means that what hutch does is correct for a problem by putting new mechanics that cover that problem but create several more. 
    If you're I'd say they need to overhaul their "physics system" with something they can understand better 
  • milewski1015milewski1015 Member Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jiga said:
    Hutch_Tim said:

    What changed with PL7
    We fixed ‘Upgraded car loses’!
    The AI now drives more optimally, so an upgrade is always better than no upgrade (if you see different, let us know). This change also altered which tuning is best for some cars on some tracks, as previously a sub-optimal AI would mean a different tune had an advantage.    ,,,,

    ,,,,Upgrading the engine currently slightly upgrades traction, but the game doesn’t communicate this, and the ‘Race Info’ tips will attribute this to ‘better spec’, which isn’t clear. This produces some strange results. 

    AI now drives more optimally?  pretty loose definition of optimal methinks.  am i right in supposing that this previously little known feature that upgrading engine upgrades traction is essentially the fix for less upgraded cars beating more upgraded or at least part of the fix maybe along with other even less known features?  And this fix is responsible for the situation where a number of cars that prior to PL7 were optimally tuned 033 are now beaten on the tracks best suited to them by 303 tunings?  and this is why i have several epics and ultra-rares at 669 since i don't know if it will stay this way or if sanity will return?

    My technical knowledge of the mechanics involved here is pretty limited but i do know that to accelerate out of corners requires traction, and so better traction means better handling doesn't it?  So seems to me that under the current regime upgrading engine will improve handling beyond what upgrading chassis alone does.  Lets say you tune a car chassis only to 009 and has handling coefficient dsiplayed of 90.  Then you tune engine only and each successive upgrade of the engine will effectively improve the handling beyond the coeff displayed won't it?  (i guess something to do with why grip was replaced by handling).

    Hence on tracks where 033 cars were better before now 303 has become more dominant because 303 is lower 0-60 and has maybe significantly better handling than is displayed on the card.  Lately i have seen that 330 tunings have become more viable than previously, for example the rq6 Alfa Mito 303 comfortably beaten by 330 on wet twisty road.  That doesn't seem right to me.  Engine upgrades seem to be having an over-inflated influence on race dynamics which was not the case prior to PL7.

    I could be completely wrong in all this.  sorry if i am.  My impression is that cracks in the physics engine/AI are being papered over and that the fixes that have been applied have not been adequate because they do not address whatever the root cause of the problem actually is.  
    I believe the 330 beating 303/033 on twisty road was mainly due to the hills physics changes. The mini hill in the middle of the track was a turning point for a lot of races this update
  • jigajiga Member Posts: 191 ✭✭✭
    edited November 25
    Where is @Mettiti and why have his posts disappeared?

    and is this forum broken now as well or just for me?

  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Member Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    jiga said:
    Where is @Mettiti and why have his posts disappeared?

    and is this forum broken now as well or just for me?

    I was about to ask the same thing about the forum. It doesn't refresh itself anymore and doesn't take you to the latest post when you enter a thread
  • O__VERO__VER Member Posts: 700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch probably stopped paying their fees.
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