General Discussion

An idea to combat last minute entry winning main prize

RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 14 in General Discussion
So there has been debate for and against late entry into events.

I believe there may be a solution here, and would like to open it up for discussion.

I believe that the best way to run events is to have a single server bracket for each region. The key difference however, is that the bracket expands as new players enter. 

The event could have a pre-determined percentage of players for each tier of prizes.

For example 

Tier 1: 10%
Tier 2: 20%
Tier 3: 30%
Tier 4: 40%

If there are only 100 players entering, 10 people will win tier 1.

If 500 people enter, 50 people win it and so on.

Combine this with a necessary revision of the point scoring system to widen the difference between win and loss scores so that late entry players would be disadvantaged. At the moment, there is very little disadvantage to a late entrant.

Edit: changed title, from late entry to last minute entry. This is what i meant. A few hours to go is fine with me. 30 minutes to go is not imho
Post edited by RobGripes on
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Comments

  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm delighted that you've come right on and given such a detailed reply. I am along with the majority of forumers here who are in the camp sympathetic of Hutch's dilemmas and obstacles.

    I understand that late joiners seemingly are a small problem, but sooner or later all the early joiners will come across players who have garages far superior than they ought to be. Someone wins a 918 today, is able to win the dakar rally next time using the 918. It will snowball.

    My lack knowledge around coding prohibits me from understanding the technological constraints you guys have to work within. I was hoping it would be simple, expand the brackets by setting a larger number permissible. Code a percentage of players rather than a set number.

    In my eyes, if late joining to bag top tier prizes is wrong, then we should stop it. It is for me even more important than car locking. I don't mistakenly fuse cars anymore. Do it once or twice and you learn from it. 
  • tichoblintichoblin Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭✭
    I don’t see any problem with late entry
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ppedras said:
    Another option would be to "reserve" a percentage of places in each bracket. For ex. 10% in a 500 bracket would be 50 places. Those were alocated to the players entering in the last hours of the competition, lets say 4-5 hours. That way it would be very hard to climb to the top without putting a lot of gold. In some cases it could be possible, but its still less than right now. 

    That sounds feasible.

    @tichoblin are you one that uses late entry to your benefit to win the top tier? I'm not getting into any kind of blame game, merely want to understand why you might have that opinion.
  • DeserTDeserT Member Posts: 435 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14
    Personally it frustrates me a great deal
    to know that someone can enter with a silly hand, minutes before the end of an event and win a game changing Legendary - that myself and others obtained with a lot of effort and sacrifices (In my case 18A class cars and 30B class cars)!
     
    Hutch is right, it happens to a small number of people. But the word is out and many people instead of participating in the event are rolling the dice entering last minute (and eventually crashing the servers). And more will do that in the future and this will
    a) cause all earlier brackets to be much more difficult because they will consist of people actually trying to play the game properly and
    b) become a self-fullfilling prophesy as a big number of people joining late will cause many new brackets to open in the last minutes making this nonsense to get prize cars with 5 races a possibility.

     Two excellent proposals are on the table:
    a) As @ppedras  suggested brackets should stay with let’s say 80% completeness (400/500 or something similar) and should be filled in with people joining the last 6 hours,
    b) Event entrance should be restricted X (eg, 6) hours before event ends. Casual players that are sooo casual that will not enter 2.5 days after the event started probably don’t care at all about the trophy cars and should not be expected to have a chance to win it.

  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @CharlieR it's not really a gamble if they have a weak garage, wouldn't win the car and take a 'gamble' on winning tier 1 by doing a late entry.

    Only those that don't deserve the car take that route, so why should they be allowed a chance to win it via that method?
  • tichoblintichoblin Member Posts: 746 ✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    ppedras said:
    Another option would be to "reserve" a percentage of places in each bracket. For ex. 10% in a 500 bracket would be 50 places. Those were alocated to the players entering in the last hours of the competition, lets say 4-5 hours. That way it would be very hard to climb to the top without putting a lot of gold. In some cases it could be possible, but its still less than right now. 

    That sounds feasible.

    @tichoblin are you one that uses late entry to your benefit to win the top tier? I'm not getting into any kind of blame game, merely want to understand why you might have that opinion.
    Never entered late, except couple of times in dailies. But that was more accidentally than intentionally.
  • sinnersinner Member Posts: 612 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14
    RobGripes said:
    @CharlieR it's not really a gamble if they have a weak garage, wouldn't win the car and take a 'gamble' on winning tier 1 by doing a late entry.

    Only those that don't deserve the car take that route, so why should they be allowed a chance to win it via that method?
    I think thats completely untrue. 

    Heres my experience. I entered with 3 hours to go into a bracket of 424. I used 500 gold I purchased to work my way to the top and to service my cars. I then held my position and used my tickets as they came, buying 5 more in the last 10 mis. I finished in 5th and raced about 45 times.

    Now IMO this does not mean I dont deserve to win and I'll tell you why. I battled for 5 days, upgrading and racing to win 2 of 3 CF in the lead up to the main event. I spent real money buying 5 or 6 Porsche CF, alas I had no luck with any decent pulls, just food. In the past I have also bought about 8 of the prevous CF from past events again with no luck. I fused 15 ultra rares to max two epics. And still I knew this wouldnt of been enough.

    When you see people running 5 Legendarys or 2 former prize cars and 3 maxed RQ26's what is the point of me entering and battleing over 40th and a CF i bought a load of already?

    It wasnt though lack of effort (i put a lot into this game ) or spending (Its still cost me about £70) it was just luck that put me in that position. It wasnt guaranteed that I win, it was a gamble which payed off.

    At least now I have a chance in future Porsche events, although I would still need to be lucky or tactical in my entry. Dont forget people who had amazing hands before this now have even better ones.

    Not evey late entry is undesevrving.


    edit; I've just reread what you wrote and think I mis understood a little, any way :D







  • CharlieRCharlieR Member Posts: 412 ✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    @CharlieR it's not really a gamble if they have a weak garage, wouldn't win the car and take a 'gamble' on winning tier 1 by doing a late entry.

    Only those that don't deserve the car take that route, so why should they be allowed a chance to win it via that method?
    chms, you are right, that is not really a gamble - more of a exploit 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @sinner

    Just to clarify, the situation you speak of is not what I was talking about.

    You are a little late, but not so late that no one has a chance to race against you.

    With your strategy, you're using your garage and gold and negotiated your way up a relatively full table. Other players can then race you, and if your garage didn't deserve 5th place, you wouldn't get it because at some point you will meet 6 players you can't beat. There's your plateau.

    I am only talking about last 5-30 minute joiners who race 5 tickets in an empty bracket and get tier 1 because there aren't any players/isn't enough time for players to beat them.

    They will have a hand that only would get them tier 3 or 4 in other brackets but use this exploit to win. 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have edited OP to reflect my intention more clearly
  • ppedrasppedras Member Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭
    ppedras said:
    ..."That way it would be very hard to climb to the top without putting a lot of gold."....
    @sinner but i'm not against late entry, i'm against late entry in newly formed brackets and winning a car with 5-10 races!

    If you read what i wrote i do refer that cases like yours are still possible. You can either spend on CF´s and  try to max your hand or take the risk of a late entry nowing that you'll have to spend gold to get to the top. This is different. You made 40 races and if you got to the top its because your hand was still good enough for top8. Otherwise you couldn't keep on top right? 
  • sinnersinner Member Posts: 612 ✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    @sinner

    Just to clarify, the situation you speak of is not what I was talking about.

    You are a little late, but not so late that no one has a chance to race against you.

    With your strategy, you're using your garage and gold and negotiated your way up a relatively full table. Other players can then race you, and if your garage didn't deserve 5th place, you wouldn't get it because at some point you will meet 6 players you can't beat. There's your plateau.

    I am only talking about last 5-30 minute joiners who race 5 tickets in an empty bracket and get tier 1 because there aren't any players/isn't enough time for players to beat them.

    They will have a hand that only would get them tier 3 or 4 in other brackets but use this exploit to win. 
    Yeah i did think that after, but i thought id let the statement as it took me so long to write on my phone  :D
  • sinnersinner Member Posts: 612 ✭✭✭✭
    ppedras said:
    ppedras said:
    ..."That way it would be very hard to climb to the top without putting a lot of gold."....
    @sinner but i'm not against late entry, i'm against late entry in newly formed brackets and winning a car with 5-10 races!

    If you read what i wrote i do refer that cases like yours are still possible. You can either spend on CF´s and  try to max your hand or take the risk of a late entry nowing that you'll have to spend gold to get to the top. This is different. You made 40 races and if you got to the top its because your hand was still good enough for top8. Otherwise you couldn't keep on top right? 
    Yeah completely agree with you and @RobGripes in that respect.

    So the answer is pretty simple, stop entry 1hr before end then? 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do like the idea of reserving spaces in larger brackets. I wonder if cut-off was an hour, players would just exploit that instead and the problem remains.

    My OP's idea was to have brackets that just keep increasing in size as more players join.

    Then prizes are given out to the top xx% and that number increases accordingly.

    Then the top players always win, the weakest hands lose and all is right in the world
  • TD42792TD42792 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    sinner said:
    ppedras said:
    ppedras said:
    ..."That way it would be very hard to climb to the top without putting a lot of gold."....
    @sinner but i'm not against late entry, i'm against late entry in newly formed brackets and winning a car with 5-10 races!

    If you read what i wrote i do refer that cases like yours are still possible. You can either spend on CF´s and  try to max your hand or take the risk of a late entry nowing that you'll have to spend gold to get to the top. This is different. You made 40 races and if you got to the top its because your hand was still good enough for top8. Otherwise you couldn't keep on top right? 
    Yeah completely agree with you and @RobGripes in that respect.

    So the answer is pretty simple, stop entry 1hr before end then? 
    The problem is you will still have the same people trying to enter late before the cut off time to get into newly created tiny brackets, which would become locked 1h before the end. So it does not resolve the issue I think.
    Only way to police it in my mind, would be to have continuously expanding brackets as per Rob’s suggestion. Either with % based prize categories, or set number prize categories, based on overall participation stats from previous events (ie much bigger brackets, top 100 get prize 1, next 500 get prize 2, next 2000 get prize 3, etc.) and then the last bottom prize is infinite in number.
  • ppedrasppedras Member Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭
    @RobGripes i wouldn't cut off the entries. On the other hand i understand that many of us join brackets at a determined moment and try to avoid the big sharks. With open brackets until the end there is always the risk of one of these end on our bracket and steal the prize we've been batteling for more than 2 days. There is not a single easy and simple solution unfortunately. 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With an expanding bracket that problem goes away. Should be enough prizes for everybody.

    Eric for example could take his, as well as other whales, and as more people join more top tier prizes would become available.
  • ppedrasppedras Member Posts: 911 ✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    With an expanding bracket that problem goes away. Should be enough prizes for everybody.

    Eric for example could take his, as well as other whales, and as more people join more top tier prizes would become available.
    I see your point. Problem is that a single dynamic bracket needs a very good server. One thing is dealing with many but small "files", other is having to deal with just one gigantic "file". In terms of processing it's different. 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ppedras said:
    RobGripes said:
    With an expanding bracket that problem goes away. Should be enough prizes for everybody.

    Eric for example could take his, as well as other whales, and as more people join more top tier prizes would become available.
    I see your point. Problem is that a single dynamic bracket needs a very good server. One thing is dealing with many but small "files", other is having to deal with just one gigantic "file". In terms of processing it's different. 

    Yeh, i figured that might be a problem, although i was unsure how much of an obstacle it would be. 


  • TD42792TD42792 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    Just had an idea: full brackets get the normal prizes, non-full brackets get nerfed prizes, and for sure not the super prize car for tier 1.
    How about that? Would encourage people to join in early. And once you know it you know that if you join on the last day you might jot get the better prizes.
    Would need to know how much of the player base is in non-full brackets at the end of an event, but I would think a small percentage.
    Would require a disclaimer as long as the bracket is not full.
  • HeissRodHeissRod Member Posts: 2,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TD42792 said:
    Just had an idea: full brackets get the normal prizes, non-full brackets get nerfed prizes, and for sure not the super prize car for tier 1.
    How about that? Would encourage people to join in early. And once you know it you know that if you join on the last day you might jot get the better prizes.
    Would need to know how much of the player base is in non-full brackets at the end of an event, but I would think a small percentage.
    Would require a disclaimer as long as the bracket is not full.
    Thats a strong no.  I joined on the morning of Day 2.  At the end, I don't think my bracket was full.
  • hillclimberhillclimber Member Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    TD42792 said:
    Just had an idea: full brackets get the normal prizes, non-full brackets get nerfed prizes, and for sure not the super prize car for tier 1.
    How about that? Would encourage people to join in early. And once you know it you know that if you join on the last day you might jot get the better prizes.
    Would need to know how much of the player base is in non-full brackets at the end of an event, but I would think a small percentage.
    Would require a disclaimer as long as the bracket is not full.
    Thats a strong no.  I joined on the morning of Day 2.  At the end, I don't think my bracket was full.

    yes, even some of the early brackets never get full. as far as I understand it has something to do with matchmaking and thresholds. as long as we don't know exactly how this works it's difficult making a final suggestion on extending brackets.

    or those someone know how matchmaking works in details? 
  • TD42792TD42792 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    Ok then there is no solution, this is a case study for future games, this system is flawed.
    Only thing would be to do infinitely expanding brackets (as per Rob’s idea), unless someone comes up with another idea.
  • Topdriver44089Topdriver44089 Member Posts: 81 ✭✭
    What about locking the entry early (with 6 hours to go) and then randomize the brackets (with people keeping their points from their original brackets)
  • hillclimberhillclimber Member Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15
    that's what I suggested before a couple times too.

    the question is if players would accept this randomization, it could be interpreted as chaotic.
    Post edited by hillclimber on
  • vossixvossix Member Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    What about locking the entry early (with 6 hours to go) and then randomize the brackets (with people keeping their points from their original brackets)
    That’s not so good.
    Some player drive 3 days. In some brackets the first 8 have 200 points. In other 1000. So the player there fight 3 days and have 250 points lost his place in the top 8. 

    Why Hutch don’t close all brackets 12 to 24 hours before the event end? When you in ok. When not be unlucky.
  • TD42792TD42792 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    vossix said:
    What about locking the entry early (with 6 hours to go) and then randomize the brackets (with people keeping their points from their original brackets)
    That’s not so good.
    Some player drive 3 days. In some brackets the first 8 have 200 points. In other 1000. So the player there fight 3 days and have 250 points lost his place in the top 8. 

    Why Hutch don’t close all brackets 12 to 24 hours before the event end? When you in ok. When not be unlucky.
    Because you would still get the same issue: people join late right before the deadline and hope to be in a newly opened bracket (at the cut off time) with no competition. Does not solve the problem.
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