Another final, another timezone catastrophy

13

Comments

  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    pretty sure both Katie and Dmitri intro'd themselves with their personal cars IRL and asked us about ours. 

    I think Hutch created a community manager playbook and they both stuck to it. 

    step 1- Intro - ask about cars
    step 2 - ask about problems... etc
    and you had the rest covered @TD42792


  • 0171801718 Posts: 495 ✭✭✭
    edited July 12
    For all I know this specific topic is 6 days old. We are in the holiday season. I feel some of you are already picking on 'the new guy' who is most likely not responsible for the problems.

    I get the frustration but please let's not take it out on Individual employees of Hutch. 
  • Yama_sanYama_san Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    edited July 12
    I have the feeling that this forum has very low priority for Hutch, and that they care more about the in game forum (just a guess, I never go there). In game forum has probably more newer players, and this forum more... ranters they're tired about. :D

    But I agree overall communication and how things are dealt sadly don't give a good impression for a such popular game.
  • nathanwindnathanwind Posts: 349 ✭✭✭
    TD42792 said:
    @Hutch_Dmitri whats up?!? You had a good start but gone to silence mode now, just like the previous community manager?
    Deja vu
    1- long intro post, cool dude / gal
    2- engages, tries to solve issues
    3- forum explains everything that is wrong
    4- tries a bit more a few times
    5- looses hope, never to be seen again
    Very true. Sounds like every new job I've ever had. Arrive. Talk to lost of people. Be really euthastic. Start to realise problems are very long standing. Realise you don't have power or remit to change anything. Just keep head down and get on with job. Leave job. Rinse and repeat 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    01718 said:
    For all I know this specific topic is 6 days old. We are in the holiday season. I feel some of you are already picking on 'the new guy' who is most likely not responsible for the problems.

    I get the frustration but please let's not take it out on Individual employees of Hutch. 
    Definitely not picking on Dmitri. We're hoping that as he has so far been good at communicating with the community, that he speaks up in here too.

    But a tongue in cheek comment noticing the same M.O. as Katie isn't picking on him. It's mild humour. 

    6 days, and not one of the hutch guys who normally speak to the community have commented on this thread... Quite poor in many peoples opinions even if you don't share that feeling, it is a reasonable for us to feel the frustration.
  • Hutch_DmitriHutch_Dmitri Posts: 165 admin
    Hi all,

    The reason why we are reluctant to speak about it is because our reasons have already been stated before, so there isn't much new we can say.

    As you all know, this issue has been around for a while, and it's something that we've always been aware of. We certainly appreciate our Asian market, and despite the fact that the overall industry numbers do not necessarily correlate with our own Asian player base, the problem with end times could potentially be one of the reasons why our numbers in the Asian region are not so high. Although the link is not that clear. But we are aware of it. 


    There are a few issues with the solutions that have been proposed here. For instance, if we made end times server dependent, that would not entirely solve the issue as the end times would still span 8 hours, and would not necessarily be comfortable for all Asian region players, and only a few time zones would truly benefit from the change. There is also a problem with requirements where Asian users would get the requirements ahead of everyone else. At minimum, we would have to make the events in Asia go live/end later than US/EU (our core areas), so that US/EU players would find out about the requirements before Asia.

    It is likely that we would also have to make changes to US end times, if we were to go ahead with changes to the Asian servers. 

    We do have some ideas on our minds, but they all require careful planning to ensure we are not creating more problems, and there are plenty of considerations with any solution. Currently, our server structure is heavily based around events ending and starting at the same time, so changing those would require a lot of resources from the team.

    To sum up, we certainly are thinking about it, and it's on the list, but not on the short-term list.
  • RawelRawel Posts: 945 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For instance, if we made end times server dependent, that would not entirely solve the issue as the end times would still span 8 hours, and would not necessarily be comfortable for all Asian region players, and only a few time zones would truly benefit from the change.
    And how would that be diferent from what we have in eu? Event ends span across 8 hours, but it's afternoon/late evening, not middle of the night.

    There is also a problem with requirements where Asian users would get the requirements ahead of everyone else. At minimum, we would have to make the events in Asia go live/end later than US/EU (our core areas), so that US/EU players would find out about the requirements before Asia.
    I don't understand how that's such a big deal and why it would be ok if we get to know the requirement earlier, but when asia does it's a problem, but whatever. If for me events ended in a middle of the night I'd trade that earlier knowledge anyday for a reasonable end time
  • greddygreddy Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13
    We already know requirements 2 or 3 days before events start.. 
    Post edited by greddy on
  • bodyboarder03bodyboarder03 Posts: 49 ✭✭
    Hi all,

    The reason why we are reluctant to speak about it is because our reasons have already been stated before, so there isn't much new we can say.

    As you all know, this issue has been around for a while, and it's something that we've always been aware of. We certainly appreciate our Asian market, and despite the fact that the overall industry numbers do not necessarily correlate with our own Asian player base, the problem with end times could potentially be one of the reasons why our numbers in the Asian region are not so high. Although the link is not that clear. But we are aware of it. 


    There are a few issues with the solutions that have been proposed here. For instance, if we made end times server dependent, that would not entirely solve the issue as the end times would still span 8 hours, and would not necessarily be comfortable for all Asian region players, and only a few time zones would truly benefit from the change. There is also a problem with requirements where Asian users would get the requirements ahead of everyone else. At minimum, we would have to make the events in Asia go live/end later than US/EU (our core areas), so that US/EU players would find out about the requirements before Asia.

    It is likely that we would also have to make changes to US end times, if we were to go ahead with changes to the Asian servers. 

    We do have some ideas on our minds, but they all require careful planning to ensure we are not creating more problems, and there are plenty of considerations with any solution. Currently, our server structure is heavily based around events ending and starting at the same time, so changing those would require a lot of resources from the team.

    To sum up, we certainly are thinking about it, and it's on the list, but not on the short-term list.
    This response is the biggest cop-out ever. No actual answers, just excuses. Requirements excuse is null and void since we all find that out beforehand. 
  • Hutch_DmitriHutch_Dmitri Posts: 165 admin
    Hi all,

    The reason why we are reluctant to speak about it is because our reasons have already been stated before, so there isn't much new we can say.

    As you all know, this issue has been around for a while, and it's something that we've always been aware of. We certainly appreciate our Asian market, and despite the fact that the overall industry numbers do not necessarily correlate with our own Asian player base, the problem with end times could potentially be one of the reasons why our numbers in the Asian region are not so high. Although the link is not that clear. But we are aware of it. 


    There are a few issues with the solutions that have been proposed here. For instance, if we made end times server dependent, that would not entirely solve the issue as the end times would still span 8 hours, and would not necessarily be comfortable for all Asian region players, and only a few time zones would truly benefit from the change. There is also a problem with requirements where Asian users would get the requirements ahead of everyone else. At minimum, we would have to make the events in Asia go live/end later than US/EU (our core areas), so that US/EU players would find out about the requirements before Asia.

    It is likely that we would also have to make changes to US end times, if we were to go ahead with changes to the Asian servers. 

    We do have some ideas on our minds, but they all require careful planning to ensure we are not creating more problems, and there are plenty of considerations with any solution. Currently, our server structure is heavily based around events ending and starting at the same time, so changing those would require a lot of resources from the team.

    To sum up, we certainly are thinking about it, and it's on the list, but not on the short-term list.
    This response is the biggest cop-out ever. No actual answers, just excuses. Requirements excuse is null and void since we all find that out beforehand. 
    Sure. It's your right to interpret my words any way you want. I can point you to my last sentence, which is 'To sum up, we certainly are thinking about it, and it's on the list, but not on the short-term list.'

    That's how the situation is as it stands. The priority list isn't a forgiving entity. I've highlighted the issue with the team once again, however I have nothing else to tell you.
  • Hutch_DmitriHutch_Dmitri Posts: 165 admin
    Bucks73 said:

    Spanning it out over day time like in the EU is a much better solution, and if you want to start the events after the US/EU because apparently it’s a problem starting them before (even though as pointed out nearly everyone know the event requirements ahead of time on fan FB pages) then we can live with that! Anything is better than what we have. 
    There is an assumption here that finding our about the requirements ahead of time using exploits is a good reason to make changes on that basis. It is not.

    It's just how things have been running for a long time, but it's far from how they should be. 

    Bucks73 said:


    I’m really perplexed how the link isn’t clear? This game is based around events, not a single player campaign (which is quickly passed at the start). If those events end at an unreasonable time for that player base, why would they play?  I think the link could not be clearer?  The biggest issue for the Asian server is that the 8 hour span you mention puts some people in the middle of the night, some people in the very early morning, and some people at a decent time in the morning giving them a huge advantage. 


    I think I will be right to presume that you don't have evidence to support that link. No time zone issue stops players from downloading the app. It may hurt retention in the long-run, but there's plenty of gameplay hours for users to put into the game before they get a garage strong enough for the event times to matter. 

  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bucks73 said:

    Spanning it out over day time like in the EU is a much better solution, and if you want to start the events after the US/EU because apparently it’s a problem starting them before (even though as pointed out nearly everyone know the event requirements ahead of time on fan FB pages) then we can live with that! Anything is better than what we have. 
    There is an assumption here that finding our about the requirements ahead of time using exploits is a good reason to make changes on that basis. It is not.

    It's just how things have been running for a long time, but it's far from how they should be. 

    Bucks73 said:


    I’m really perplexed how the link isn’t clear? This game is based around events, not a single player campaign (which is quickly passed at the start). If those events end at an unreasonable time for that player base, why would they play?  I think the link could not be clearer?  The biggest issue for the Asian server is that the 8 hour span you mention puts some people in the middle of the night, some people in the very early morning, and some people at a decent time in the morning giving them a huge advantage. 


    I think I will be right to presume that you don't have evidence to support that link. No time zone issue stops players from downloading the app. It may hurt retention in the long-run, but there's plenty of gameplay hours for users to put into the game before they get a garage strong enough for the event times to matter. 

    This part i disagree with. Imagine a new player starting out. They're playing for top 2 ceramics, and T2 aluminiums. Below that it is the steel packs. This newbie can't play at 4am and so they're only able to take home steel/plastic packs. 

    Event times matter the moment multiplayer is unlocked. It is part ot the game economy. 

    Though i appreciate you coming to voice something on this matter, i would contend that as we are part of the asian market, and also our EU brothers and sisters are big fans of the game they understand. we have good knowledge of this issue and how it makes players feel. In all likelihood we understand it better than Hutch does. 

    Why not try to engage with us on the topic? Hutch used to do that and it showed a developer trying to make a game for the players. I for one loved that about Top Drives during its infancy


  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We also had the rotating event times for the silver screen qualifiers. They were a blessing. I could win all those cars regardless, but just to see the time alternating 12 hrs was delightful. 

    Heck, i would take 1 out of 3 events being 8-10 hrs earlier if our American friends enjoy the times as they are now. 

    But the alternate times being 10 hrs earlier would still allow everybody to finish during normal waking hours.
  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    Bucks73 said:
    I think I will be right to presume that you don't have evidence to support that link. No time zone issue stops players from downloading the app. It may hurt retention in the long-run, but there's plenty of gameplay hours for users to put into the game before they get a garage strong enough for the event times to matter. 


    No one is disputing the biggest share of your revenue comes from the regions that coincidentally have the most favourable event end times. I was merely suggesting in my point that it would assist in further generation of revenue in a region that is clearly not doing well for this game. 


    While I understand and generally agree with your point, I don't have the evidence to support that statement.

    You wanted a member of Hutch team to contribute to the discussion, which I did, and passed the feedback to the wider team. I was assured by the team that this issue has been raised multiple times in the past, and I would imagine there are good reasons why it wasn't addressed previously. 

    I will repeat myself but I'll say again that it's on the list. It doesn't mean that we will never look into it. 

    P.S. I apologise if my tone came across as passive aggressive.
    Thanks and I apologise for my passive aggressive response. Just understand that most of us in this thread are just long term players and fans of the game and want to keep going, but we are seeing in our Various social gaming group chats and on FB Forums some long term players dropping and we don’t want to be next. That’s all. Coming from a genuine place of passion of enjoying the game but Literally having to chose between the game and sleep. 

    And absolutely did appreciate you responding so thanks for that. 
  • lemmings99olemmings99o Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13

    I think I will be right to presume that you don't have evidence to support that link. No time zone issue stops players from downloading the app. It may hurt retention in the long-run, but there's plenty of gameplay hours for users to put into the game before they get a garage strong enough for the event times to matter. 


    Do you have any idea how condescending that statement sounds? Plus what appear to be quite an alarming lack of understanding of the game in my view. "plenty of gameplay hours for users to put into the game before they get a garage strong enough for the event times to matter" is essentially saying to play the game for a few days/weeks and then we don't care if you delete it.  Plus newer lower rq players get matched against low rq players in normal ceramic events so event times matter almost straight away.
     
    It's almost as if you don't actully play the game or understand it at all, and your passive aggressive condescending replies in not just this thread but others as well suggest a job interacting with customers really wouldn't be a suitable career for you.

    This is coming from a uk player who isn't affected by the end times of events and therefore is more of an impartial obsever to this conversation
  • lemmings99olemmings99o Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13

    I think I will be right to presume that you don't have evidence to support that link. No time zone issue stops players from downloading the app. It may hurt retention in the long-run, but there's plenty of gameplay hours for users to put into the game before they get a garage strong enough for the event times to matter. 


    Do you have any idea how condescending that statement sounds? Plus what appear to be quite an alarming lack of understanding of the game in my view. "plenty of gameplay hours for users to put into the game before they get a garage strong enough for the event times to matter" is essentially saying to play the game for a few days/weeks and then we don't care if you delete it.  Plus newer lower rq players get matched against low rq players in normal ceramic events so event times matter almost straight away.
     
    It's almost as if you don't actully play the game or understand it at all, and your passive aggressive condescending replies in not just this thread but others as well suggest a job interacting with customers really wouldn't be a suitable career for you.

    This is coming from a uk player who isn't affected by the end times of events and therefore is more of an impartial obsever to this conversation
    I am the messenger. Most of my answers here come from the discussions I have with the team after showing them the threads and explaining the issue. I do not take anything out of my head. 

    I could give endless promises here which would end up with you getting even more frustrated when these promises are never fulfilled after X time. I could sugarcoat my wording and deflect instead of being direct. What I can offer instead is an acknowledgment - I'm not forgetting about any of the issues players are mentioning here, and will keep bugging relevant people.

    Sometimes areas of imperfection will continue to exist because even with the best will in the world a resolution is not possible given the time available. This is relevant for many other topics, not just this one.
    My issue isn't with the answers, nor am i wanting anything sugarcoated, my issue is why way you seem to find it acceptable to put snide comments into your answers. There's also a difference between being direct and coming off as rude, which some of your responses do.

    While you may as you say "only be the messanger" you need to look at how you relay those messages to the customers "which we are as we do pay money in this game" in a less condescending manner.
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13
    @Hutch_Dmitri

    I appreciate you chiming in, and if you don't mind my suggestion, a positive approach to seeing how we might contribute ideas together would be better received.

    Surely that is better than simply saying, 'we've heard it all before and nothing has changed nor will it change anytime soon'.

    Now, i do think that technically it is possible to have different times because we've had them before. 

    Silver screen used alternating end times. Clubs now ends at a different time than before. It is possible. But hutch does not look into devising a fair system for all because frankly, they don't care to, because the asian market is currently small .

    I understand that this topic has been brought up before, but nothing was done then and we waited. It's now nearly 3 years since global launch.

    The key difference now though is that players are stuck to one region. This change is significant in keeping players within a region on a level of playing field if leaked tracksets are the main concern for hutch. It makes much more feasible to implement a system with alternating end times now.

    Servers don't need much work surely, you guys did it for silver screen. 

  • Hutch_DmitriHutch_Dmitri Posts: 165 admin
    RobGripes said:
    @Hutch_Dmitri

    I appreciate you chiming in, and if you don't mind my suggestion, a positive approach to seeing how we might contribute ideas together would be better received.

    Surely that is better than simply saying, 'we've heard it all before and nothing has changed nor will it change anytime soon'.

    Now, i do think that technically it is possible to have different times because we've had them before. 

    Silver screen used alternating end times. Clubs now ends at a different time than before. It is possible. But hutch does not look into devising a fair system for all because frankly, they don't care to, because the asian market is currently small .

    I understand that this topic has been brought up before, but nothing was done then and we waited. It's now nearly 3 years since global launch.

    The key difference now though is that players are stuck to one region. This change is significant in keeping players within a region on a level of playing field if leaked tracksets are the main concern for hutch. It makes much more feasible to implement a system with alternating end times now.

    Servers don't need much work surely, you guys did it for silver screen. 

    There is certainly an understanding and appreciation of the issue among the team. 

    Just to be clear, the Silver Screen events were still ending at the same time globally. Having them ending at different times in different regions is a different story. At the moment, servers are built on an assumption that everything ends at the same time everywhere.

    There are options, however. For instance, having an offset applied to the end time in other regions. That's not without its own issues, but seems like a reasonable solution.


  • lemmings99olemmings99o Posts: 1,703 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13
    RobGripes said:


    Servers don't need much work surely, you guys did it for silver screen. 

    I think the difference is that during the silver screen events they changed the start/finish time for an event but it was the same for every region whereas theyve said they don't want to inconvenience their core market which currently is america and europe so wouldn't want a major final ending at silly times for them.

    What they'd have to do would be have the same event starting or ending at different times for different server regions which is something they havn't done before, how difficult that is with their server setup i have no idea but at a guess i'd say more difficult than what they did during silver screen.

    Edit : i was beaten to it lol
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    @Hutch_Dmitri

    I appreciate you chiming in, and if you don't mind my suggestion, a positive approach to seeing how we might contribute ideas together would be better received.

    Surely that is better than simply saying, 'we've heard it all before and nothing has changed nor will it change anytime soon'.

    Now, i do think that technically it is possible to have different times because we've had them before. 

    Silver screen used alternating end times. Clubs now ends at a different time than before. It is possible. But hutch does not look into devising a fair system for all because frankly, they don't care to, because the asian market is currently small .

    I understand that this topic has been brought up before, but nothing was done then and we waited. It's now nearly 3 years since global launch.

    The key difference now though is that players are stuck to one region. This change is significant in keeping players within a region on a level of playing field if leaked tracksets are the main concern for hutch. It makes much more feasible to implement a system with alternating end times now.

    Servers don't need much work surely, you guys did it for silver screen. 

    There is certainly an understanding and appreciation of the issue among the team. 

    Just to be clear, the Silver Screen events were still ending at the same time globally. Having them ending at different times in different regions is a different story. At the moment, servers are built on an assumption that everything ends at the same time everywhere.

    There are options, however. For instance, having an offset applied to the end time in other regions. That's not without its own issues, but seems like a reasonable solution.


    I'd be happy if we even just simply rotated the end times. Keep them the same globally, but alternate them the same as silver screen.

    That would be fair for everybody. It would make sense. It would buy time to keep asian players happy while a better, region-specific system could be devised in the longer term.


  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am curious about attrition rates in the different markets. I am wondering if asia is higher than others. 
  • 0171801718 Posts: 495 ✭✭✭
    As a central european Player I would be totally fine with rotating end Times to tackle the problem before it gets solved with more sophisticated methods.
  • milewski1015milewski1015 Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would be fine with that as well. As I mentioned earlier, my 5PM EST end time works out great for me. But I’d be willing to sacrifice that every now and again with rotating event end times in the interim to at the very least tide over the Asian playerbase until a solution can be implemented.

    Also as I mentioned earlier, I think a big part of the frustration from the Asian players was that they felt there wasn’t any acknowledgement/recognition/progress made towards this issue. A big part of that is, in my opinion, the mythical “list”. Hutch has plenty of lists: lists of feature requests, lists of issues, etc, but there really isn’t any concrete record of these lists or what is on them. Something akin to @Hutch_Robin’s roadmap posts but for issues with the game would go a long way I think. I’ve seen other developers use public Trello boards to collaborate with their team and keep the playerbase in the loop (to some degree of course, I don’t think anyone is expecting 100% transparency) regarding bugs that need fixing. Moving issues left and right through the board communicates the state of the issue (replication, testing for solutions/reworks, will be implemented in next patch, has been implemented, etc.). Items in the board can be commented on by those with access (Hutch staff in this case). Putting the Asian server end times issue in a ‘testing for solutions’ category, with notes added regarding the progress towards that solution (“servers are built for all events ending simultaneously; changes will require massive development”) would be a great way to show that these issues are actually being worked on and communicate that progress towards the affected players. 

    Idk, I’m sure you guys already have some sort of collaborative tool you use (especially with a lot of people working remotely thanks to COVID), but with something like a Trello board, it’d be a lot easier for us players to know what is actually being worked on and what issues are being addressed
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