959 Dakar Testing

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  • bantel_catbantel_cat Posts: 936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    A question on Grip/Handling and Tyres (It was a good move to change name to Handling as it has no bearing on drags).

    In the past we have seen how TD applies a 'Friction Coefficient' to determine Tyre performance, i.e on Ice 0.02 for Perf and 0.05 for Offroad. Is this in relation to twisties only and something else is applied for straight-line get aways?

    Whilst I get that weight may play a role surely the differential between a Perf Tyre and an Offroad would be much greater, particularly on Snow, Ice, Sand and Wet Dirt but also on Gravel and Dirt to a lesser extent.

  • BoxtaSBoxtaS Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hutch_Tim said:
    I assume the SUV bonus helps a bit in the motocross as well as the Hill Climbs.

    It's correct that the next question is what should be the relative impact of tires vs. more weight. One thing to note is that these weight differences are huge. In my tests, the 959 Dakar and S8 Plus have the same 0-60 time, off-road vs. performance tires, but the S8 Plus has almost 50% more weight - and the overall result is that the Dakar is slower by about 6%. 
    By this logic, a trials motorbike wouldn’t be able to get up a dirt hill at all, only weighing 150kg ( incl rider), yet there is a whole sport dedicated to it...
    ONE wheel drive, but ah yes, a big chunky off road tyre on the back 😂
  • bobdylanbobdylan Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pikes peak nerfed  😆😆😆😆😆 
    Yessssss 
  • bobdylanbobdylan Posts: 3,458 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just don't nerf my carol 
  • AntounAntoun Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bobdylan said:

    Just don't nerf my carol 
    Don't try it against the 959 Dakar on hillclimb, or you will be really sad with the result....
  • ManUtdTobbeManUtdTobbe Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, i don't get the outrage about fixing the Pikes Peak aslong as they don't stop there… Aslong as they keep working to find out why the drag results are weird too and other stuff then it's a good fix.
  • David_FookDavid_Fook Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    I don't see the problem with making this change to the Pikes Peak.  It is not being "nerfed" as everyone is claiming, as the R8 was.  Nerfing would imply that the stats are staying the same, but Hutch is purposefully making the car perform worse in all situations.  No, what is happening here is a genuine fix.  Hutch incorrectly gave the Pikes Peak an SUV body style, which it obviously isn't and never should have been.

    @hillclimber - I'll do wet dirt testing later
    @bantel_cat - I added the SVR to my list.  Thanks for the times.  They will show up when I post the wet dirt times later.
    Agree. Anyone using a Pikes on hillclimb or motocross is going to get beat anyway, although you could argue it’s an unnecessary change, it was only highlighted as a comparison to the obviously bugged Dakar. As long as it doesn’t affect its performance anywhere else.
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 5,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's a very good example, @Rysio.  Can you tell if it's slower off the line or just has horrendously bad midrange?
  • RysioRysio Posts: 392 ✭✭✭
    Off the line.Metro picking up speed much quicker
  • RysioRysio Posts: 392 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    and metro win 1/2 mile snow too.btw dakar is 2.2.3 atm
  • David_FookDavid_Fook Posts: 2,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another one for the mixer. Tried to think of a lightweight all-surface car, tried the mini @ 1.3. It’s 200kg heavier but double the 0-60 time and worse tyres. Beats an equivalent Dakar...


  • hillclimberhillclimber Posts: 2,157 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    from Tim's quote earlier 

    I would like to counter-argue to that. more weight really does not help since you have to move more mass, that's simple physics.  what it might help is dose the power slightly better. but in your latest Top Drives Show video you claim at ~17:40 that the AI drives the car near to perfection. so wheelspin shouldn't not be an issue. (sorry for taking you by your word)

    what we agree is that the grip is important and the Dakar should have 2,5 times the grip of an Audi V10+ according to the friction table


    in fact even a bit more since cars with rear engine always seemed to have a little bonus for drags on difficult terrain. 
  • BoxtaSBoxtaS Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A question on Grip/Handling and Tyres (It was a good move to change name to Handling as it has no bearing on drags).

    In the past we have seen how TD applies a 'Friction Coefficient' to determine Tyre performance, i.e on Ice 0.02 for Perf and 0.05 for Offroad. Is this in relation to twisties only and something else is applied for straight-line get aways?

    Whilst I get that weight may play a role surely the differential between a Perf Tyre and an Offroad would be much greater, particularly on Snow, Ice, Sand and Wet Dirt but also on Gravel and Dirt to a lesser extent.

    Exactly this. A few years back I saw a Range Rover sliding sideways down an icy hill towards me - whilst I cruised UP it in a Vauxhall Tigra wearing snow chains. True story. Performance tyres are utterly unusable on ice or snow in the real world, probably just as useless on sand. 
  • bantel_catbantel_cat Posts: 936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Part of the problem I feel lies in the Offroad tyres perform too well on asphalt.
    Sure Asphalt is the benchmark and car stats reflect this.

    OK so that is factored into the stats, if the tyres were changed to Perf it would need stat changes so grip (and arguably 0-60) would go up.
    We saw the grip go down on cars changed to offroad tyres.

    But then that would make them completely over-powered.

    It all comes down to the fact that the stats of a car are based upon the tyres it has fitted on Asphalt. Wouldn't it have been better to standardise the stats on a car based upon one scenario only, i.e on Perf Tyres on Asphalt and apply a 'Friction' for the other scenarios, i.e if it has different tryes or you aren't running on Asphalt.

    Hard to get stats on the Offroad Cars but lets take the Escort Rally.
    Its stats might be reasonable but only if it was on perf tyres, 4.9 and 82 seems right for that vintage (though probably for highly tuned rally cars you'd look more towards the fully tuned stats rather than stock - for Production cars the stock figures reflect the 'real-world' performance).

    But it wouldn't be so quick on offroad tyres round a circuit. Instinctively we know that knobbly offroad tyres aren't going to be great for acceleration and even worse around the corners, there just isn't the same amount of rubber on the road for traction.
    It just seems wrong that the 4.1/91 Escort on knobbly tyres whizzes around asphalt tracks as quick as an Elise. On perf tires, sure, we've seen them flung around the roads of Corsica, easily a match for production sports/super-cars. Yes 4.1/91 is its performance on Offroad tyres according to TD, so what if you gave it Perf tyres? 3.8/95? Hmmm

    S1 Quattro we can get a 0-60 figure of 3.1, I bet that wasn't measured on offroad tyres though.

    So one option would be to say that the Stats reflect performance tyres on Asphalt and apply a lower Friction for Offraod tyres on Asphalt.
    The problem then is the other tyre cars. You'd also have to apply a slightly lower friction to Standard and All Surface but those cars have a (presumably realistic) nerf on stats anyway.

    Sigh... don't really know where I am going with this or if it is really relevant to our poor Dakar!


  • greddygreddy Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You said 3.1 sec on S1 Quattro wasnt measured on asphalt. Maybe not but i want just to remind that this Rally B-class monsters like Audi S1, Lancia S4, Lancia 037, Peugeot 205 T16, Metro etc.. were extremely fast of the line. For example Lancia S4 had 0-60mph in 2.3 sec on GRAVEL. With those rally monsters it was all about acceleration and handling. Top speed was low and top speed doesnt matter in rally. 
    Dakar on the other hand is completly different car, which wasnt build to be fastest off the line or to have the best handling. Main focus on Dakar was to be able to complete 3000 miles through desert relatively quick. So in reality im not surprised that is bad on drags, BUT i would definitely expect it to be great on hill climbs. 

    Some one said that weight plays big factor in , dirt, snow, ice drags.. well actually it doesnt. The biggest factor is powertrain (4wd) and tyres. For driving on ice/snow is really important that you increase traction. You do that with decreasing your tyre pressure. So with more traction you will be able to move your car off the line quicker. After that is all about power. 

    What i would do for more real factor in those races? Leave rally cars as they are. And boost dakar for hill climbs, even reduced his RQ if needed. 
  • bantel_catbantel_cat Posts: 936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    greddy said:
    You said 3.1 sec on S1 Quattro wasnt measured on asphalt. Maybe not but i want just to remind that this Rally B-class monsters like Audi S1, Lancia S4, Lancia 037, Peugeot 205 T16, Metro etc.. were extremely fast of the line. For example Lancia S4 had 0-60mph in 2.3 sec on GRAVEL. With those rally monsters it was all about acceleration and handling. Top speed was low and top speed doesnt matter in rally. 
    Dakar on the other hand is completly different car, which wasnt build to be fastest off the line or to have the best handling. Main focus on Dakar was to be able to complete 3000 miles through desert relatively quick. So in reality im not surprised that is bad on drags, BUT i would definitely expect it to be great on hill climbs. 

    Some one said that weight plays big factor in , dirt, snow, ice drags.. well actually it doesnt. The biggest factor is powertrain (4wd) and tyres. For driving on ice/snow is really important that you increase traction. You do that with decreasing your tyre pressure. So with more traction you will be able to move your car off the line quicker. After that is all about power. 

    What i would do for more real factor in those races? Leave rally cars as they are. And boost dakar for hill climbs, even reduced his RQ if needed. 
    You're right, those B-Class were nuts so maybe the stats are ok for offroad tyres on asphalt, particularly the 0-60. No idea what the lateral grip would be like though. Depends on the specifics of the tyre, offroad tyres vary a lot, the gravel rally tyres would be much better on road than mud tyres you might put on a Raptor or Hummer.
  • MSteeLMSteeL Posts: 960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    greddy said:
    You said 3.1 sec on S1 Quattro wasnt measured on asphalt. Maybe not but i want just to remind that this Rally B-class monsters like Audi S1, Lancia S4, Lancia 037, Peugeot 205 T16, Metro etc.. were extremely fast of the line. For example Lancia S4 had 0-60mph in 2.3 sec on GRAVEL. With those rally monsters it was all about acceleration and handling. Top speed was low and top speed doesnt matter in rally. 
    Dakar on the other hand is completly different car, which wasnt build to be fastest off the line or to have the best handling. Main focus on Dakar was to be able to complete 3000 miles through desert relatively quick. So in reality im not surprised that is bad on drags, BUT i would definitely expect it to be great on hill climbs. 

    Some one said that weight plays big factor in , dirt, snow, ice drags.. well actually it doesnt. The biggest factor is powertrain (4wd) and tyres. For driving on ice/snow is really important that you increase traction. You do that with decreasing your tyre pressure. So with more traction you will be able to move your car off the line quicker. After that is all about power. 

    What i would do for more real factor in those races? Leave rally cars as they are. And boost dakar for hill climbs, even reduced his RQ if needed. 
    So you are telling me I have to study how all cars perform in RL in order to know how they will perform in this game? Please. I want to get something similar to the stats that are on the card, else its just a guessing game. Then I'd rather play blackjack.
  • greddygreddy Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Well if i play a car game i expect that car will behave as close as possible to real life. Dont know what your problem is? I said that dakar should be hillclimb king for wet dirt/sand as it is in real life.  
  • MSteeLMSteeL Posts: 960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry, didnt want to offend you. Just wanted to say that it should perform better in drags (for example ice) just like other 4wd non performance tires cars are performing. Else just give it higher 0-60, change it to epic/ultra rare and give me my gold back :D
  • Destroyer2k11999Destroyer2k11999 Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    @HeissRod if you could now do the same testing with the same cars on a hill climb with bumps, let's say wet dirt, that would bring a nice conclusion about the importance of ride high. Are you still bored?  :#
    So, there's that.   :/

    Well at least all jokes aside it'll make a nice inclusion for our smurf hands on offroad day.
  • 43MK443MK4 Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Would it be possible for someone to summarize current Dakar problems seen with the eyes of community after few days few days of tests? From what I could see in this thread:

    hillclimbs: Dakar performs unexpectedly poor despite of off-road tyres and high clearance. Hutch claimed it will be fixed with adding a special hidden fingerprint.

    Drags (non asphalt): same problem as above. Some very unexpected losses, like to Carrera 4. Problem still not officially confirmed? No solution?

    Other off-road tracks: Dakar performs as expected?



  • hillclimberhillclimber Posts: 2,157 ✭✭✭✭✭
    43MK4 said:
    Would it be possible for someone to summarize current Dakar problems seen with the eyes of community after few days few days of tests? From what I could see in this thread:

    hillclimbs: Dakar performs unexpectedly poor despite of off-road tyres and high clearance. Hutch claimed it will be fixed with adding a special hidden fingerprint.

    Drags (non asphalt): same problem as above. Some very unexpected losses, like to Carrera 4. Problem still not officially confirmed? No solution?

    Other off-road tracks: Dakar performs as expected?



    yes they are working on the fingerprint



  • bantel_catbantel_cat Posts: 936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    HeissRod said:
    @HeissRod if you could now do the same testing with the same cars on a hill climb with bumps, let's say wet dirt, that would bring a nice conclusion about the importance of ride high. Are you still bored?  :#
    So, there's that.   :/

    Wow!

    I wonder why the SVR (and the AMG GLE) are so slow comparatively?

    Offroad tyres should definitely have a traction advantage here compared to All Surface, hard to tell if they do because they DNF!
    Maybe testing a Hummer will see how it compares to a comparable All Surface, anyone have an Ultra Rare Hummer they can throw up the wet hill climb?
  • Sherby90Sherby90 Posts: 306 ✭✭✭
    969 hummer, 1957 kg
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