General Discussion

The Future of Specialists

2

Comments

  • James_PearceJames_Pearce Member Posts: 1,009 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with those who say that excluding certain cars completely feels inappropriate. RQ feels like the best solution, although using a ‘Specialist’ tag as a limiting factor is also an interesting prospect.

    I also agree that when you shift one car up then it begs a lot of questions about other cars. The Datsun 240Z is not as good as the Escort, Porsche or even Silvia, and would become instantly uncompetitive in general use. 
    Edit: red Escort should be RQ23 if you go with the #1 or #2, been key in almost every event the last 2 weeks.
    I don’t think it should move up, as it’s significantly worse than the RQ21 Porsche 924 GTS. However, the Nissan Silvia 240 RS shouldn’t be RQ21 as both the Ford and Porsche are significantly better. Aside from top speed, it should be (currently) RQ19. 
  • adms87adms87 Member Posts: 290 ✭✭✭
    I like option 4 obviously as I've been asking for it for a long time. But this will mean that there should be less restrictions to RQ in some events as it won't make that much sense anymore to limit in rarities events for instance.. The option 6 is also good and can be combine with number 4.
  • adms87adms87 Member Posts: 290 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018

    many of us have massively invested in garage slots. To have the advantage of having multiple duplicates. To have the advantage of being prepared for all eventualities. Where others used their gold to buy CF packs, we bought slots garages, to have 5 El Camino, 4 BBR and tutti quanti. Completely at odds with the rule that prevented duplicates. Maybe one every month or something like that but not more. 
    I also prefer to invest in garage slots and I didn't have any duplicate at least until last week when I decided it was time to play differently to improve faster. It's a card collector game, so IMO the main goal should be to collect as many cars you can.

    The events I think should always have a "No duplicate" rule are the rarity events and the brand events with lots of mid-low RQ cars. There may be others but these are the more common.
  • Nacho101Nacho101 Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭✭
    I like 4 ('No Duplicates') and 6 (Formalise Specialist as a car tag, and have a limit of a certain number of cars of this tag) -  used with discernment.

    In terms of rarity changes:

    • El-camino: should be RQ15 - mind you it would still be the fastest car in C class
    • Beat: I like how we use the beat, its a filler that doesn't loose too many points - not a giant killer. Nevertheless, could be upped to RQ4 or 5
    • Datsun (or all RWD of road): could go to RQ18. But as good as it is, YOU NEED TO UP THE RQ ON ALL RWD OFF ROAD CARS if you up the RQ on this, especially if it goes RQ19. The escort in particular
    • Mazda BBR: Should be RQ14 or 15
    • Caterham Seven 270: Should be RQ17 or 18

  • Nacho101Nacho101 Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭✭
    O__VER said:
    I don't really have a problem with the El Camino being bumped up to the next tier, or the Beat for that matter. But that's maybe because they will still be top picks within the next tier.

    BUT the Datsun pushing up to RQ19 sits it right behind the RQ20 Escort Rally which is far superior. The Escort Rally would then need to be bumped even higher, meaning the Porsche 924 needs to be higher, etc. Perhaps if all off-road tired cars were simultaneously pushed higher (ie. an RQ penalty applied to all), it might make more sense, but I don't think this is an ideal solution.

    If the Datsun was RQ18 and events were RQ limited a bit more, it might be a better option.
    I agree, there is an argument to say that the RQ20 FORD ESCORT should be an epic (RQ23). Its got very fast low speed acceleration, lightweight, high grip AND medium height. They absolutely dominate all off road other than gravel and excel on most asphalt.

    Less of a specialist but more of punching well above its weight.

    As many of us saw, they dominated all B class cars (except one that I know of) in the city events and likewise excel in Slalom. I previously thought the medium height RQ22 hot hatches were tailor made for city events - nope, all you need is an off roader!
  • AJTheCaveManAJTheCaveMan Member Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would like the "no duplicates" filter enabled sometimes. Would make things much more strategic, especially in off road events.
  • rei348rei348 Member Posts: 895 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    Gsearch said:
    You can change the RQ, but wouldn't we just find a replacement?  I know these fight way out of their weight class, but the fastest dr4ag car in the D class will just change.  what ever the next fastest is, will become the new Staple.  I think that mostly the Camino is used to get the lowest 0-6 and straight away speed WITHIN your RQ budget for an event.  moving it up would only make us choose a different car that fits the bill.
    Totally agree... Even if in the past days I struggled a lot not having the escort (and I expect to be the same in future...), if you bump it the next specialist would be the nissan 240. And if you bump nissan, another car would take place. Same story for all the other specialists...

    I think is normal to have some car that shine in some specific race, if you get rid of them the "2nd place car" would be the new king, so:
    Option 1, 2 and 3 would be a never ending fight with continuously increasing rq.
    Option 5 is too complicated to manage for you and for us
    Option 4 and 6, especially option 6, seems to be more balanced. With events where they wouldn't be allowed, or only 1 maybe, and other events with free entry, as it is today.

    Anyway, I would go for option 0: leave as it is. If a car is a specialist, let us use it
  • SchmidtiSchmidti Member Posts: 148 ✭✭✭
    For me only #4 and #6 are good solutions 
    I would not appreciate changing the rq when your simulation figures out that position. 
    A no duplicate rule would be a nice thing for some events.
  • hillclimberhillclimber Member Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would like the "no duplicates" filter enabled sometimes. Would make things much more strategic, especially in off road events.
    eh buddy!

  • MoogMoog Member Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    An RQ bump seems sensible to me which leads me to think that the system for allocating RQs in the first place might need to be reviewed.
    From what I understand (I'm probably wrong!), you compare all cars on all event types at a variety of upgrade levels and this gives a ranking.
    Perhaps then adding an RQ bump/penalty for cars that come top of any particular table or something.

    As an aside, I do like the idea of a 'no duplicates' event even if it's not to fix this particular issue.

    Also, Pulsatingstar makes some good points regarding track sets.

  • G_anlucaG_anluca Member Posts: 237 ✭✭✭
    option 4-5-6.
    Do events that sometimes (SOMETIMES), ban some car, some brands, allow or not duplicates etc...
    DO NOT MESS WITH RQ, please!!!
    If a car is a specialist it may remaint as it is! And if you change its RQ simply there will be another car that replace it...

    But most important... every time you change the RQ for a car, you simply ruin that car and all the efforts of collecting and upgrading them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This happened already too many times and it is really a pain in the xxx....
  • flight4590flight4590 Member Posts: 550 ✭✭✭
    I’m just going to throw in some little bit regarding why, at least the El Camino needs the RQ change, without any shred of doubt.

    this car, is flat out overpowered.  Simple as that, fastest car on the drag until B class.  And it will beat some names, such as the C5 Vette, and I guarantee it beats my 911 GT3 from 1999.  Heck, when uprgading it, it took until nearly full upgrade for the Mustang GT, then a top B car to beat it.  

    This is HORRIBLE for the game.  Because people will see a car at two, maybe even three rarities above and say “it’s not better than my El Camino.”.  It has singlehandedly dominated it’s intended purpose, about as bad as Fox in Melee.  And the time has come to push it up to where it belongs.  The Corvettes at D are good enough cars, but woeful in actually reaching the promised speeds.  Though that shouldn’t be much an issue for late game players, but I can see the issue to newer folk.  But literally having a 0.9 difference in 0-60 between first and second, and the besting cars way above its weight, making many devalue other cars that are likely very capable (XLR-V somewhat come to mind).  That is unacceptable to me.  

    TL;DR issue isn’t being best at it’s class, issue is being way too strong for what it is placed at.
  • hajduk_fanhajduk_fan Member Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I think max RQ should be changed to 35 with one new category invented so it's easier to bring "right" RQ to a car. There are many examples of cars with same RQ being massively different in performance.

    Also, don't just look how to "nerf" overpowered cars, take a look in how to fix sh-it cars that have RQ way above their actual performance (like CLK DTM that is RQ25 but can be beaten by pretty much any B class dragster because of its non-existing midrange).
  • OzzmanOzzman Member Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I’m just going to throw in some little bit regarding why, at least the El Camino needs the RQ change, without any shred of doubt.

    this car, is flat out overpowered.  Simple as that, fastest car on the drag until B class.  And it will beat some names, such as the C5 Vette, and I guarantee it beats my 911 GT3 from 1999.  Heck, when uprgading it, it took until nearly full upgrade for the Mustang GT, then a top B car to beat it.  

    This is HORRIBLE for the game.  Because people will see a car at two, maybe even three rarities above and say “it’s not better than my El Camino.”.  It has singlehandedly dominated it’s intended purpose, about as bad as Fox in Melee.  And the time has come to push it up to where it belongs.  The Corvettes at D are good enough cars, but woeful in actually reaching the promised speeds.  Though that shouldn’t be much an issue for late game players, but I can see the issue to newer folk.  But literally having a 0.9 difference in 0-60 between first and second, and the besting cars way above its weight, making many devalue other cars that are likely very capable (XLR-V somewhat come to mind).  That is unacceptable to me.  

    TL;DR issue isn’t being best at it’s class, issue is being way too strong for what it is placed at.

    The problem with changing the El Camino's RQ is that the Corvette 396 would instantly take it's place. Because almost the same could be said about that car. Apart from the 0-60 it's the fastest until B class as well (yes, beats the XKSS on 1/4 mile, and not even the Z4 can beat it there (same time)), and in return, because of the higher top speed, and better MRA, it's better than the El Camino on 75-125 and maybe even on test bowl and 0-150, for less RQ.

    Specialist cars are a part of the game, and I think it's fine. Marking and banning them sometimes is acceptable, but punishing them with higher RQ would be wrong. The RQ system looks at all the avaliable tracks, and the asphalt drag race (of which there aren't too many compared to all the races) is such a special type of racing, that these things are inevitable.

  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Administrator, Hutch Staff Posts: 818 admin
    edited September 2018
    Ozzman said:
    The RQ system looks at all the avaliable tracks.
    It does not do this. The system races vehicles across a selection of the challenges in the game across three surface categories.
    Post edited by Hutch_Robin on
  • flight4590flight4590 Member Posts: 550 ✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    I’m just going to throw in some little bit regarding why, at least the El Camino needs the RQ change, without any shred of doubt.

    this car, is flat out overpowered.  Simple as that, fastest car on the drag until B class.  And it will beat some names, such as the C5 Vette, and I guarantee it beats my 911 GT3 from 1999.  Heck, when uprgading it, it took until nearly full upgrade for the Mustang GT, then a top B car to beat it.  

    This is HORRIBLE for the game.  Because people will see a car at two, maybe even three rarities above and say “it’s not better than my El Camino.”.  It has singlehandedly dominated it’s intended purpose, about as bad as Fox in Melee.  And the time has come to push it up to where it belongs.  The Corvettes at D are good enough cars, but woeful in actually reaching the promised speeds.  Though that shouldn’t be much an issue for late game players, but I can see the issue to newer folk.  But literally having a 0.9 difference in 0-60 between first and second, and the besting cars way above its weight, making many devalue other cars that are likely very capable (XLR-V somewhat come to mind).  That is unacceptable to me.  

    TL;DR issue isn’t being best at it’s class, issue is being way too strong for what it is placed at.

    The problem with changing the El Camino's RQ is that the Corvette 396 would instantly take it's place. Because almost the same could be said about that car. Apart from the 0-60 it's the fastest until B class as well (yes, beats the XKSS on 1/4 mile, and not even the Z4 can beat it there (same time)), and in return, because of the higher top speed, and better MRA, it's better than the El Camino on 75-125 and maybe even on test bowl and 0-150, for less RQ.

    Specialist cars are a part of the game, and I think it's fine. Marking and banning them sometimes is acceptable, but punishing them with higher RQ would be wrong. The RQ system looks at all the avaliable tracks, and the asphalt drag race (of which there aren't too many compared to all the races) is such a special type of racing, that these things are inevitable.

    I was unaware of how capable the Vette was actually.  However I will note this partially is because most strong C class cars for drags got bumped to B (Elise 111s, E500 come to mind.  I can’t really recal any others).  The class overall seems very biased towards twist devils such as the Megane and Abarth 124 than having a good blend.  But that’s just me probably.
  • OzzmanOzzman Member Posts: 1,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    Ozzman said:
    The RQ system looks at all the avaliable tracks.
    It does not do this. The system races vehicles across a selection of the challenges in the game across three surface categories.
    That's interesting. I thought you race every car against every other car, on each track (all surfaces, all weather conditions). How do you select the tracks and the three surfaces? Or has it already been discussed, and I just missed that?
    Post edited by Hutch_Robin on
  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Administrator, Hutch Staff Posts: 818 admin
    edited September 2018
    Ozzman said:
    That's interesting. I thought you race every car against every other car, on each track (all surfaces, all weather conditions). How do you select the tracks and the three surfaces? Or has it already been discussed, and I just missed that?

    We add new challenges over time, but we've never changed the RQ ranking system, so even if it once had all challenges, it wouldn't have them now.

    Originally there was a a single performance value, but this didn't fairly represent cars who only performed well in certain scenarios (e.g. off road cars), so we divided the ranking into categories based on this. Then, challenges were selected to cover a range of performance stats within each category.

    We race all cars against one another at different upgrade levels on this selection of tracks on different conditions. We then use these different performance scores to come up with a single score, which we then divide into rarity and RQ tiers.

  • bobdylanbobdylan Member Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A ban list on clones would be good . 
    So you can't use the same car at the same time more than once in a race
  • pmglfvpmglfv Member Posts: 136 ✭✭✭
    If you only change the rq of these cars, there will always be a replacement!
    During the last super rare event, the best hands were composed of 2 x datsun and 1 x Abarth, because the limit rq did not allow to have a 3rd datsun.
    If the datsun had a higher rq, we would have had 1 x datsun and 2 x abarth!
    If you move El camino in rq15 class C, its replacement will be Chevrolet Corvette rq13 in class D. But you create a new problem, el camino will be the best for drags in class C, with a low rq. At the next Super Rare event on asphalt, we will use el camino for drags, Caterham rq16 for slalom, force G and parking and rq18 for the rest (Megane rq18 in city streets, Porsche rq18 and Lancia Rally 037 for other circuits )
    The only conceivable solutions are 4 and 6.
    But solution 4 can only be considered for class events. What will I do with my 2nd Porsche 959, if I could not use it in 80's events! This is true for many cars.
    You reduced the points for drag races, because the best cars earned a lot of points that were difficult to recover with the other tracks. But you have considered the problem in reverse, the best car for the slalom must earn more points against a mediocre car. This also applies to the city streets (yesterday in the Rare event, the Ford Mondeo rq14 is the best class D car for the small city streets won only 58pts against Ford Rally ecort rq13). So it would not be as good to have a Honda Beat in his hand!
  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Administrator, Hutch Staff Posts: 818 admin
    edited September 2018
    Ozzman said:

    The problem with changing the El Camino's RQ is that the Corvette 396 would instantly take it's place. Because almost the same could be said about that car.

    pmglfv said:
    If you move El camino in rq15 class C, its replacement will be Chevrolet Corvette rq13 in class D.
    As already stated, the Corvette 396 is much closer to the Corvette LT-1 and Corvette ZR1.
  • lg29lg29 Member Posts: 681 ✭✭✭✭
    Please no... i almost have 5 beats and i have 5 el caminoes
  • AntounAntoun Member Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Option n°6 seems to be the best.
  • grandvachegrandvache Member Posts: 1,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Background

    Cars that are effective under a specific set of circumstances are underrated in the RQ and Rarity ranking algorithms. The result is car ratings don't tell the full story, allow you to find hidden gems, and ensure there is more diversity in the kinds of cars available in each tier. However, certain cars can be unrivaled in their category, far surpassing the 'next best' option. It can mean some events are stagnant during the event and hands between different events are too similar.

    I wanted to open a discussion on this issue, with some examples and potential solutions.

    Case Studies

    Honda Beat - Common (F) - 3 RQ
    Chevrolet El Camino SS 454 - Rare (D) - 14 RQ
    Datsun 240Z Rally Car - Super Rare (C) - 17 RQ

    Solutions (from easy to difficult)

    1) Increase RQ by 1 or 2 (and allow Rarity to change)

    Honda Beat - Common (F) - 5 RQ
    Chevrolet El Camino SS 454 - Super Rare (C) - 15 RQ
    Datsun 240Z Rally Car - Super Rare (C) - 18 RQ or Ultra Rare (B) - 19 RQ

    This feels like the most natural change - we apply a minor or major RQ penalty to the car in the next rebalance. Specialists can get their time in the spotlist before we move them to a more reasonable RQ, sometimes increasing rarity, and allowing other cars the chance to shine. The second best car is likely to be closer to rest of the cars available.

    2) Increase RQ and Rarity to the bottom of the next tier

    Honda Beat - Uncommon (E) - 6 RQ
    Chevrolet El Camino SS 454 - Super Rare (C) - 15 RQ
    Datsun 240Z Rally Car - Ultra Rare (B) - 19 RQ

    This is a more drastic implementation of the first idea. It's ensuring any change, e.g. to the Honda Beat, materially changes a car's usage.

    And we could make the changes based on community selected cars.

    3) Include more specialist challenges in the RQ ranking process

    Adding in more 'single stat' races, e.g. drag races, slaloms will result in these cars having higher RQ ratings. Will likely affect a lot of cars in small ways. It allows us to include some new challenges in the ranking tool, too.

    4) (new feature) Some events run with 'No Duplicates' as a rule

    You could see a hand of 5 different specialists, but it would be harder to have an unbeatable hand. However, which events do and don't have this criteria? It feels like players will always be unhappy when this rule works against them and it makes it harder to prepare for events if you don't know this rule in advance.

    5) (new feature) Ban lists in events

    This would result in cars almost being retired from the game, after all, in which events do you have ban lists - presumably any event where the car is relevant. Also, ban lists, if they are not standard, are hard to clearly message to players.

    6) (new feature) Formalise Specialist as a car tag, and have a limit of a certain number of cars of this tag in events to 1 or 2.

    This is an interesting idea, to have limits on an entire class of vehicle, which would mean players have to decide which Specialists to use. However, if there is only 1 specialist relevant in a Rare event, all that means it you would be limited to 2 of them, which may not be a huge change. However, it puts hidden gems in plain sight. It's also a longer term solution than rebalancing cars.
    The ranking tool (henceforth "then rankinator") doesn't use all the available tracks?  

    How do you decide what tracks to include in the rankinator? More importantly why do you eliminate certain tracks? Do you house some sort of rolling frequency calculation to ensure you include tracks in a ratio that reflects how often they come up in multiplayer? Or Is the rankinator based on the campaign?

    I just assumed that it was every track once.  Why isn't it?
  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Administrator, Hutch Staff Posts: 818 admin
    The ranking tool is designed as a smaller and quicker version of the overall match resolver. As stated, challenges were selected to cover a range of performance stats within each category. This precedes multiplayer events being added to Top Drives.
  • lukec436lukec436 Member Posts: 90 ✭✭✭
    appreciate the communication! id go with either option 1 or 4. One is obviously less time consuming, but 4 is more "fun"
  • EndlessWavesEndlessWaves Member Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    Specialist seems to be the wrong term. Cars like the Twizy, Land Rover Discovery or XJ-R Trans Am are specialists. They dominate at in one or two events against others the same RQ even though they're terrible at many things.

    Cars like the El Camino and Datsun and beat are a problem because of the breadth of events they can be used in, they're very strong in a lot of situations. I'm pretty sure the ranking tool is just wrong about them, their downsides are in areas more heavily weighted in the ranking than in events.

    I would definitely favour raising them to a RQ where the take top spot at their RQ for fewer events. The specific restrictions are going to be very hard to balance and assign to events in a way that don't produce lots of complaints. 

    If anything I think your proposed RQs are conservative. The Datsun could easily be RQ20 with the other rally cars moved up, and the El Camino RQ18. The beat would be about right at RQ6-7 - it still beats RQ7 low ground clearance, performance tyre cars in slalom. 

    But it does seem better to try and to address the root cause first, and play around with the ranking tool with the aim of getting it to organise cars into RQs in a better way. Perhaps adjust the tracks based on their distribution in historical event data, and implement something that increases the performance score for cars that are good across tracks that are often put together. 

    As well as reflecting track distribution in events it also feels like it needs to value the top spots more. Cars like the Juke and QX50 seem to be ranked high because they're better than average across a wide range of events, yet coming 10th out of 35 cars in an RQ has no value to players and they almost never form part of the winning hand for an event. 

  • LSMSCLSMSC Member Posts: 45 ✭✭
    I'm not sure bumping the El Camino to C will help in any way. It will still be the fastest on 1/4 mile (and 0-100). Which is okay, one car has to take that title. But this car is still top on 1/2 mile and very good on 1 mile and the bowl.

    In my mind the only fix would be to make it's MRA slightly worse. If it is the best car on 1/4 mile, but starts loosing on 1/2 mile and longer, alternatives based on track mixes will show up. 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I would enjoy a no duplicates restriction occasionally. That adds variety in hands (like formula fun) and option 4 would aid this.

    Regarding RQ changes to the specialist cars, i am indifferent because we will always find out which cars are the best in class and load up multiples of those in our hands. 

    I think what the game really needs are changes to drag events points. Drag cars are key and it focuses our hand selection towards them.

    I also think that removing the class tier restriction and just using RQ limits will be far better for this game.
    The rare event now is RQ 60. Don't restrict by rarity, but RQ only, and next time make it a 90, or 120 or 45 (or 67, 92, 56!).
    Then we will see variety where some use only rares, some use a super rare + uncommon. It'll be varied and far more interesting in strategy
    Post edited by RobGripes on
  • theducktheduck Member Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited September 2018
    I think having cars like the once mentioned goes very well with the reasoning we heard for Dakar. They are good at their own thing and not good at others. Retuning the balancing tool may be an option, but may lead to something like the C4 Corvette being bounced back and forth and will make many people unhappy, in the end with just have new staple cars taking their place. 

    Introducing limit on duplicates is a cash cow killer - would not make sense to have bigger garages to accommodate multiples of same vehicle. Would make it more interesting, but overall would negatively impact average garage size and thus Hutch’s revenues.
    Post edited by theduck on
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