Late join thread1000

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  • MoogMoog Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    18 second last min join got me 287th. I did have the wheel of doom a lot after I placed my hand, so I'm guessing my race didn't start in time.
  • hillclimberhillclimber Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    so the majority wants late joining to be banned?  if there are other opinions pls speak out.

    what should hutch do to prevent late entry and going up their servers in flames?

    options:
    1. close the event for new entries about 1 hours before the end.
    2. estimate the amount of participants (I know it's not easy) and open a amount of brackets from the start on that covers about 90%. So late entry is theoretical still possible but the odds are very bad.

    - do we see other options? 
    - would option 2 satisfie the player base as a compensation for the lowered prize boards, because now they can smarf from the beginning on without having any disadvantage? 
  • LittleEnosBurdetteLittleEnosBurdette Posts: 2,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Only other option I see is using the same as in clubs, you get the reward after participating in X amount of races, 25 for instance, still allows people to join late and spam tickets if they wish and nobody wins with last minute join. 
    I think your option 1, no new brackets being generated in the last X amount of minutes would also be viable. 
    No 2 would be a no go I think as people choose when to join for various reasons and Hutch have said they want to cater for casual players also, you could be out of contention before you start if you can’t join for a day or so. 🤷🏻‍♂️
  • RWareRWare Posts: 896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Option 1 - increased to 2-3 Hours

    Seems simple enough to sort it without re-inventing the wheel....
  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would close the brackets early.
    What makes the server go down in the end might not be just the number of players racing, but also the constant opening of new brackets in the last minutes. We know there is a problem with that, as sometimes brackets close with few people in and a new one opens, which happens always right at the start of the events.
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's really early and I haven't had a coffee yet but would this be feasible?

    All players are known to Hutch.
    At the moment everyone is on a fixed server (annoying for some friends stuck 'abroad' but that's another issue).
    Why not randomly assign every single player to a server before the event begins?
    When a player joins, they enter a pre-determined bracket and fight from there.

    If they're a casual player, no worries they still get in. If they are weak and just farming they can do so. The randomness will also help the fight for winning by merit IMO, and it's just down to luck whether you're placed in an easy or tough group. 
  • 43MK443MK4 Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    It's really early and I haven't had a coffee yet but would this be feasible?

    All players are known to Hutch.
    At the moment everyone is on a fixed server (annoying for some friends stuck 'abroad' but that's another issue).
    Why not randomly assign every single player to a server before the event begins?
    When a player joins, they enter a pre-determined bracket and fight from there.

    If they're a casual player, no worries they still get in. If they are weak and just farming they can do so. The randomness will also help the fight for winning by merit IMO, and it's just down to luck whether you're placed in an easy or tough group. 
    Interesting suggestion, but wouldnt hutch have to assign every account created in game? This would include all the inactive ones, which theoretically can become active at any time.
    as a result I think we would end up with plenty of relatively empty brackets where many of assigned players just didn’t join.
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭
    43MK4 said:
    RobGripes said:
    It's really early and I haven't had a coffee yet but would this be feasible?

    All players are known to Hutch.
    At the moment everyone is on a fixed server (annoying for some friends stuck 'abroad' but that's another issue).
    Why not randomly assign every single player to a server before the event begins?
    When a player joins, they enter a pre-determined bracket and fight from there.

    If they're a casual player, no worries they still get in. If they are weak and just farming they can do so. The randomness will also help the fight for winning by merit IMO, and it's just down to luck whether you're placed in an easy or tough group. 
    Interesting suggestion, but wouldnt hutch have to assign every account created in game? This would include all the inactive ones, which theoretically can become active at any time.
    as a result I think we would end up with plenty of relatively empty brackets where many of assigned players just didn’t join.

    That's a good point. If they could somehow make a ticketing system so that only players who had entered either the qualifier or prelim would be assigned a place in the finals.

    If anyone happened to pick the game back up jist as a final came around they're probably not gonna win anything good.
  • NemezNemez Posts: 172 ✭✭✭
    Another approach could be a different calculation method. Instead counting only wins, there could be a multiplier for races done.
    E.g.: Instead +18 points for a win, you get +18+1,23 for having 123 races so far in an event. This way having more races plays a role, currently none.

    Now, I don't think this will stop really-late joiners but it can boost ppl to be even more active. 

    Late joining could be addressed by inserting milestones to get rewards. So, e.g. you need minimum 100 races to qualify for T1, 80 for T2 etc. 
  • BasilBasil Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited July 9
    Hutch must know by know (with their stats :-) ) how many players normally enter an event. Why not open brackets according to that (let's say 50 brackets with potential 500 players / bracket) and put the first entry in B1, second in B2 etc... so the longer you wait the bigger the bracket. 1 thing that can be an issue is , I don't know how many brackets there are on 1 server, so when you first entry , I don't know how long it will take to get 10 players in 1 bracket so that you can compete with others than Hutch robots (I don't like that).
  • BasilBasil Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    I just hope we don't create an early join problem :-)
  • LittleEnosBurdetteLittleEnosBurdette Posts: 2,881 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don’t think they have to reinvent the wheel to fix it. 
  • hillclimberhillclimber Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 9
    okay, simply closing the brackets one hour before the end would solve a lot. Players would have enough time to bring their ranking in order, good. But it would still lead to late joining because it leaves the hope of landing in a bracket with only a few others, if you only join late egouth, and no one else could join anymore. Risky to achieve but leaves hope to brush of a prize car with a mediocre deck.

    So I would suggest to keep it at the beginning as it is. Than from t-65  to t-60 minutes new entrants are kept in a registration pool (5 minutes registration phase one hour before the end for new entries). After that hutch can decide if the players in that pool are added to existing brackets or if new bracket need to be open, they would make sure all brackets are filled equally. That should make sure there's no more cheap pinching, the lottery is closed and hutch's server don't go up in flames.

    Everybody happy?
  • MoogMoog Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    Or end the event at a random time within the hour...
    Wouldn't solve everything but would make late joining a risk.

    Personally I'd like the brackets to close a couple of hours prior to ending, at least 2.5 hours (1 full ticket refresh cycle).
  • hillclimberhillclimber Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Moog said:
    Or end the event at a random time within the hour...
    Wouldn't solve everything but would make late joining a risk.

    Personally I'd like the brackets to close a couple of hours prior to ending, at least 2.5 hours (1 full ticket refresh cycle).
    you wrote this at primetime of the asian server - that's swashbuckling!
  • BasilBasil Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    Help me on this guys. Hutch is going to fix the late joining as well,.. the servers are forcing them to do now. But, I wonder if it will fix the problem of the servers. I have had some events where I would go to sleep happily being second in T1 with about half an hour to go. In the morning, ready for my CF (or ceramic) , I noticed I was T2 or even T3. Now that late joining will be kicked out, don't you guys think that this rush in the latest hour would even become more important and so more work for the servers ?
  • OzzmanOzzman Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Basil said:
    Help me on this guys. Hutch is going to fix the late joining as well,.. the servers are forcing them to do now. But, I wonder if it will fix the problem of the servers. I have had some events where I would go to sleep happily being second in T1 with about half an hour to go. In the morning, ready for my CF (or ceramic) , I noticed I was T2 or even T3. Now that late joining will be kicked out, don't you guys think that this rush in the latest hour would even become more important and so more work for the servers ?
    There will always be a rush at the end of events, that's normal. But I guess the real threat to servers is people joining in masses, not the ones who play a few tickets at the end.
  • OzzmanOzzman Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 9
    I can imagine that solving the late-join issue is not easy. There might be aspects of the problem we don't know about, but still I think it's worth throwing some ideas on the table. Who knows, the solution, or a part of it might come from here.
    Here's mine. What if the Qualifier and the Prelim events would work as a prerequisite for the Finals. So you can only join the Prelims if you joined the Qualifiers, and you can only join the Finals if you joined the Prelims. You don't need to finish high, like in the Pro Circuit series, just enter the previous events. By the time the Prelims end, Hutch will know exactly how many players to expect for the Finals. That of course is a maximum number, not everyone will join, but probably most of them will. So they can create brackets to fit everyone (open all brackets at the start), and place new entrants evenly. No new brackets open during the three days, no point in joining late. Problem solved. Maybe.
    Post edited by Ozzman on
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The rush at the end is probably my biggest for about this game.

    The most important time in a 2-day event is the last 15 minutes. That is 0.005%.

    In any bracket, even those opened at the beginning the last 15 minutes can change everything and the reason is because the scoring system favours the active player.

    If any player can't play during those 15 minutes, they lose out. This is why the Asian bracket has some who benefit and some who lose out. Someone might have the event end at 3am, and others at 10am. How's that fair?

    If we go to a system where everyone who enters the prelim gets an automatic place in the final decided randomly for them, and changing the scoring system to reduce the passive-loss points deduction i think we can solve the very-late join problem, and also the position swings at the conclusion of an event.
  • justjukiejustjukie Posts: 134 ✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    I can imagine that solving the late-join issue is not easy. There might be aspects of the problem we don't know about, but still I think it's worth to throw some ideas on the table. Who knows, the solution, or a part of it might come from here.
    So here's mine. What if the Qualifier and the Prelim events would work as a prerequisite for the Finals. So you can only join the Prelims if you joined the Qualifiers, and you can only join the Finals if you joined the Prelims. You don't need to finish high, like in the Pro Circuit series, just enter the previous events. So by the time the Prelims end, Hutch will know exactly how many players to expect for the Finals. That of course is a maximum number, not everyone will join, but probably most of them will. So they can create brackets to fit everyone (open all bracket at the start), and place new entrants evenly. So no new brackets open during the three days, no point in joining late. Problem solved. Maybe.
    It's not a bad idea but on the flipside of the coin I can see Hutch arguing that you may then have several brackets that never fill up fully if they are filled evenly. 

    I definitely agree with you that from their perspective it's probably not an easy issue to fix. Yes they could close brackets after a certain time limit but then that prevents other people from joining who then have something to be mad about if they didn't happen to launch their game before that cut off. If they do some kind of gating like with the new format tri-series too many people may end up left out further increasing the hyper-inflation of the whales. I do like the idea of only people who have entered the previous event can enter as that would give them a good headcount and know how many brackets are needed. That also shows you which people are interested and following the event.

    My conribution would be the idea of a combination of entering the previous event PLUS an entry time cut off.  Anyone who plays this game frequently enough for the tri-series should be aware of the days they start on. Yea it may knock out some newer players but who are we kidding, those new players won't compete with the whales without late joining anyways. Hell I can't compete with them. To be honest the only thing stopping late joining will do for me in prize car event will just force me to enter early to smurf it for the income instead. I know I have no chance right now versus someone who can buy ALL the CF specials offered each event. That is the real inflation in this game right now.
  • BasilBasil Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited July 9

    I'm not sure I like the idea of having to enter 2 'prelim's to get in the final. When I'm not able to play for some days , I miss the chance on the big prize that comes once a month (not sure it is , I just guess) ? I would feel left out of the star thing this game is all about.

    It's a difficult issue, the more I read of your ideas the more I am for just a 'cut' x-hours before. I don't like entering an event that allows you or not depending on previous events.


    Maybe Hutch can give a minimum of time between two races played. Let's say 5 hours . So you need to join at least 5 hours before the end. You are not able to late join then. Wow, I like this one. Maybe I forget something... I'm sure you guys help me out :-)

  • 43MK443MK4 Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    okay, simply closing the brackets one hour before the end would solve a lot. Players would have enough time to bring their ranking in order, good. But it would still lead to late joining because it leaves the hope of landing in a bracket with only a few others, if you only join late egouth, and no one else could join anymore. Risky to achieve but leaves hope to brush of a prize car with a mediocre deck.

    So I would suggest to keep it at the beginning as it is. Than from t-65  to t-60 minutes new entrants are kept in a registration pool (5 minutes registration phase one hour before the end for new entries). After that hutch can decide if the players in that pool are added to existing brackets or if new bracket need to be open, they would make sure all brackets are filled equally. That should make sure there's no more cheap pinching, the lottery is closed and hutch's server don't go up in flames.

    Everybody happy?
    I’m a big fan of closing down brackets at T-1h.
    At the same time I think it’s a really good idea about suggested 5min period for last group of entrants. A method to ensure an equal filling of brackets.

    Now the big question is if Hutch really wants equal filling of brackets or they are interested in running a lottery show giving hope to weaker hands.
  • BasilBasil Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    OMG,.. this is the moment all my 'disagree' forumers will hollar. I disagree on a proposal I made earlier.
    Well, I disagree on time restriction in general when I think of it .
    Why ?
    When you set a time limit to let's say 1h before the end of an event, the late joiners will aim for that hour. So in short you just move the problem.
    When you let Hutch set a random time you will get a lot of discussion here on the forum and players who aren't dissapointed and angree. One day Hutch put the random time on 4 minutes , another day on 6 hours. Don't like that.

    BUT:

    Just analize the problem. What does a late joiner want. To join a bracket with as less as possible players in it. There is the trick.

    What if Hutch set a minimum players in 1 bracket ? Let's say minimum 100 players (Hutch has the stats, they can set it). The later you join , the more chance you end up in a bracket that is not allowed to play for prizes (or even packs),.. just smurfing and racing winning cash and small gold.
    This restriction is very clear for all players and there is no discussion possible.
    Maybe Hutch can change the amount of minimum players according to the event.

    Daily's => 100 players
    2 day event => 200 players
    3 day event => 300 players
    4 day event => 400 players.

    No exeption and yes, sometimes harsh for the ones that are in this last bracket but hey,.. they should have entered earlier.

    What do you thin guys ???
  • hillclimberhillclimber Posts: 2,156 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BoxtaS said:
    Oh Basil. 10/10 for effort, always 👍
    always when you think things are getting better they are only getting worse.
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