General Discussion

Club Events - strategy and farming, for new players and old hands

13

Comments

  • greddygreddy Member Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GT47LM said:
    Oh man I feel bad for Hutch staff. I'm not taking sides at all, but it must feel terrible being in their position right now
    Dont think its terrible, they should just listen community... Few tweaks and everyone will be happy. 
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Member Posts: 184 ✭✭✭
    GT47LM said:
    Oh man I feel bad for Hutch staff. I'm not taking sides at all, but it must feel terrible being in their position right now

     I'm curious, would you feel bad for "EA" too? If they did the same thing that happened the past 2 weeks? Don't you think you would be pissed? We are the customers and they are the suppliers and they failed to deliver a good product . As hard as this sounds, that's the reality. They gave us something that was clearly not ready and deleted other parts of the game that worked right and were necessary to process in the game. And their only response is damage control, which in my opinion is one of the worst is ever saw.

    So no, I don't feel bad for them, and you shouldn't too.

    I just wanted too add that I don't want to bash the hutch team, which could some people believe looking at my posts, I truly wish clubs wouldn't be as bad or say in
    Such a bad state as they are right now. Everyone would be happier if this all worked out well, but it didn't.
  • GT47LMGT47LM Member Posts: 358 ✭✭✭
    edited June 5
    GT47LM said:
    Oh man I feel bad for Hutch staff. I'm not taking sides at all, but it must feel terrible being in their position right now

     I'm curious, would you feel bad for "EA" too? If they did the same thing that happened the past 2 weeks? Don't you think you would be pissed? We are the customers and they are the suppliers and they failed to deliver a good product . As hard as this sounds, that's the reality. They gave us something that was clearly not ready and deleted other parts of the game that worked right and were necessary to process in the game. And their only response is damage control, which in my opinion is one of the worst is ever saw.

    So no, I don't feel bad for them, and you shouldn't too.

    I just wanted too add that I don't want to bash the hutch team, which could some people believe looking at my posts, I truly wish clubs wouldn't be as bad or say in
    Such a bad state as they are right now. Everyone would be happier if this all worked out well, but it didn't.
    I'm talking about the staff members mostly, the ones we interact with with the episodes and the forums. If I am correct in my thinking, they are the ones that are pushing through with the updates with what their bosses want and have to defend the choice since they work for the company.

    If it is actually them who made that choice, then oh well lol
  • tichoblintichoblin Member Posts: 948 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    As we approach the end of Season 2, the community is figuring out how Club Events work, and we're seeing what the emergent behaviours are. I figured it was worth giving a summary of how things look currently.

    Cash and Gold earnings.
    Across the RQ spectrum, we can see that players are earning about the same amount of cash each day as before, and slightly more gold. It's early days as people are figuring out how to fit Club Events into their daily play, and how to optimally play them, but at a high level things haven't changed that significantly.

    Obviously there's a lot going on under the hood though. Here are a few observations:
    - The majority of players (including RQ 150 players) didn't know how to farm the daily event. It's now more obvious to them how to make money.
    - Lower RQ players with uncompetitive garages can at least pick events with suitable requirements, and be carried by the rest of their team mates (if they pick the right events).
    - Some players are getting high efficiency with very few races played (mostly from end-of-season rewards).
    - Some players are getting very low efficiency, fighting for MVP. I would assume that will reduce over time as people find it isn't worth it, we'll see.
    - Some players are earning more money than ever before as they can put in a lot of races, thanks to the very high event turnover. Event turnover is probably too high...
    - Some daily farmers have given up on clubs, and some are farming them as best they can figure out.

    As someone who has farmed the daily for perhaps a year, I've done my own calculations. I estimate as follows:
    - Daily farming: 8 Ceramics/week, 350 gold/week
    - Club farming for the same amount of time: 6.5 Ceramics/week, 450 gold/week

    Earning 19% less cash and 28% more gold seems okay, but a much more important factor in practice is consistency. Farming the daily was easy but boring, and sometimes I wouldn't be able to play for longer than 2.5 hours, so one way or another I'd miss tickets and make maybe 5 Ceramics/week in practice. I'm personally finding Club Events much more interesting (although I appreciate that's subjective), but also much more flexible - if I can play at 8am, 8.30am, 9am, midday and 5pm, I can make more efficient use of that time than I could with Daily farming by picking which Club events I enter. So in practice I'm making more cash and gold, and having more fun, which is great. But it looks like other people aren't finding Club Events fun and/or strategic, so let's talk about how that looks!


    Strategy / Fun
    I've seen criticism about how you can't enter events that are cut off (and also some defence of that mechanic). To be fair, we could have made it more obvious how this works in the UI. It's pretty critical to the whole strategy of the mode though. There was a period earlier where Legacy had a long thin series of territories along the border between Midnight and Full Throttle - then they got cut off, and could no longer enter those events to defend them. That's exactly how it's supposed to work - fighting a war on two fronts is not a good idea!

    I can see a criticism of that though: if that sort of high-level strategy is left to the crowd, then obviously dumb things are likely to happen (although I would hope less over time).

    So can a few late-game, strategically smart players make any difference? From what I've seen so far, I think they can, and it's working as intended. Here are a few ways.

    The well-timed push
    If you come to Club Events and see an event moments away from completion, you can wait for it to resolve and then quickly kick off a new event in the best territory. If your club just lost a sector, you can quickly start another event there to fight for it back, preventing the opponents from pushing further into your territory. If your club just won a sector, you can quickly start a new event deeper into enemy territory, either one that can't be or is unlikely to be cut off, or one that best denies the opponent chances to attack more of your sectors. I've been doing this any time there's an event ending too soon for me to join.

    The General
    Obviously we've seen that to farm Club Events, the easiest thing to do is join an event that's ending soon and in your Club's favour, and a lot of players do this. The interesting thing about this is if you're a strong player, it effectively gives you an army. If you see an event where the result is close or very slightly against your Club, if you can make a few decisive wins and swing it in your favour, the army of Club farmers will then come to your aid and seal the victory. I've done this a couple of times and it's great to see happen!

    The lone wolf
    I've seen Midnight try this gambit a few times and it was pretty awesome. You might see a chance to start a Club Event in a territory that will very shortly be cut off. If the requirements look good for you, you might be able to lone-wolf it: get in with a strong hand, then get cut off, so nobody else from your Club can join to dilute your strength, and the opponents then all have to face you. As long as you lay down ghosts on all the tracks, you'll rack up wins, get an easy MVP for it, and you might even win the whole sector single-handed.

    On the flip side, as a strong late-game player, you could spot these lone wolves, and you might be the one to take them down. I've taken that role 3 times and was successful twice - it was more effort, but it felt great to take on that sort of heroic role. (It would be nice if we could reward that beyond just the regular cash, but I'm not sure of a good way to do it that isn't exploitable one way or another).


    Use of your garage
    Club events are certainly testing the diversity of my garage - I've had to use my 3rd Abarth rally for the first time; I got to field all my best Italian cars for the first time; I got to bring out the Dakar again. By giving players a choice, you can hopefully also avoid any requirements/track-set combinations that don't appeal. It does seems fair to bring back some of the openness of the daily to let people run their Legendaries and Prize Cars a bit more often, so we've been adding Club Events that are both more open and have higher RQ limits.


    What next
    Overall it does seem like sectors change hands too quickly and seasons are too long for the strategy element to feel that significant, so we're looking to tweak that for future seasons.

    More generally, we do want to make future developments to Club Events, but we're actually prioritising other features suggested by the community right now, which we started during the load testing period for Club Events. If you don't like Club Events, rest assured, we're not looking to make the game just about that feature. We're going to continue to make improvements and additions unrelated to Club Events.
    Btw you forgot to calculate prize gold from dailies. It’s 100-350 gold per week additionally. Depends on how do you smurf. 
  • TreyWelshTreyWelsh Member Posts: 133 ✭✭✭
    tichoblin said:
    Hutch_Tim said:
    As we approach the end of Season 2, the community is figuring out how Club Events work, and we're seeing what the emergent behaviours are. I figured it was worth giving a summary of how things look currently.

    Cash and Gold earnings.
    Across the RQ spectrum, we can see that players are earning about the same amount of cash each day as before, and slightly more gold. It's early days as people are figuring out how to fit Club Events into their daily play, and how to optimally play them, but at a high level things haven't changed that significantly.

    Obviously there's a lot going on under the hood though. Here are a few observations:
    - The majority of players (including RQ 150 players) didn't know how to farm the daily event. It's now more obvious to them how to make money.
    - Lower RQ players with uncompetitive garages can at least pick events with suitable requirements, and be carried by the rest of their team mates (if they pick the right events).
    - Some players are getting high efficiency with very few races played (mostly from end-of-season rewards).
    - Some players are getting very low efficiency, fighting for MVP. I would assume that will reduce over time as people find it isn't worth it, we'll see.
    - Some players are earning more money than ever before as they can put in a lot of races, thanks to the very high event turnover. Event turnover is probably too high...
    - Some daily farmers have given up on clubs, and some are farming them as best they can figure out.

    As someone who has farmed the daily for perhaps a year, I've done my own calculations. I estimate as follows:
    - Daily farming: 8 Ceramics/week, 350 gold/week
    - Club farming for the same amount of time: 6.5 Ceramics/week, 450 gold/week

    Earning 19% less cash and 28% more gold seems okay, but a much more important factor in practice is consistency. Farming the daily was easy but boring, and sometimes I wouldn't be able to play for longer than 2.5 hours, so one way or another I'd miss tickets and make maybe 5 Ceramics/week in practice. I'm personally finding Club Events much more interesting (although I appreciate that's subjective), but also much more flexible - if I can play at 8am, 8.30am, 9am, midday and 5pm, I can make more efficient use of that time than I could with Daily farming by picking which Club events I enter. So in practice I'm making more cash and gold, and having more fun, which is great. But it looks like other people aren't finding Club Events fun and/or strategic, so let's talk about how that looks!


    Strategy / Fun
    I've seen criticism about how you can't enter events that are cut off (and also some defence of that mechanic). To be fair, we could have made it more obvious how this works in the UI. It's pretty critical to the whole strategy of the mode though. There was a period earlier where Legacy had a long thin series of territories along the border between Midnight and Full Throttle - then they got cut off, and could no longer enter those events to defend them. That's exactly how it's supposed to work - fighting a war on two fronts is not a good idea!

    I can see a criticism of that though: if that sort of high-level strategy is left to the crowd, then obviously dumb things are likely to happen (although I would hope less over time).

    So can a few late-game, strategically smart players make any difference? From what I've seen so far, I think they can, and it's working as intended. Here are a few ways.

    The well-timed push
    If you come to Club Events and see an event moments away from completion, you can wait for it to resolve and then quickly kick off a new event in the best territory. If your club just lost a sector, you can quickly start another event there to fight for it back, preventing the opponents from pushing further into your territory. If your club just won a sector, you can quickly start a new event deeper into enemy territory, either one that can't be or is unlikely to be cut off, or one that best denies the opponent chances to attack more of your sectors. I've been doing this any time there's an event ending too soon for me to join.

    The General
    Obviously we've seen that to farm Club Events, the easiest thing to do is join an event that's ending soon and in your Club's favour, and a lot of players do this. The interesting thing about this is if you're a strong player, it effectively gives you an army. If you see an event where the result is close or very slightly against your Club, if you can make a few decisive wins and swing it in your favour, the army of Club farmers will then come to your aid and seal the victory. I've done this a couple of times and it's great to see happen!

    The lone wolf
    I've seen Midnight try this gambit a few times and it was pretty awesome. You might see a chance to start a Club Event in a territory that will very shortly be cut off. If the requirements look good for you, you might be able to lone-wolf it: get in with a strong hand, then get cut off, so nobody else from your Club can join to dilute your strength, and the opponents then all have to face you. As long as you lay down ghosts on all the tracks, you'll rack up wins, get an easy MVP for it, and you might even win the whole sector single-handed.

    On the flip side, as a strong late-game player, you could spot these lone wolves, and you might be the one to take them down. I've taken that role 3 times and was successful twice - it was more effort, but it felt great to take on that sort of heroic role. (It would be nice if we could reward that beyond just the regular cash, but I'm not sure of a good way to do it that isn't exploitable one way or another).


    Use of your garage
    Club events are certainly testing the diversity of my garage - I've had to use my 3rd Abarth rally for the first time; I got to field all my best Italian cars for the first time; I got to bring out the Dakar again. By giving players a choice, you can hopefully also avoid any requirements/track-set combinations that don't appeal. It does seems fair to bring back some of the openness of the daily to let people run their Legendaries and Prize Cars a bit more often, so we've been adding Club Events that are both more open and have higher RQ limits.


    What next
    Overall it does seem like sectors change hands too quickly and seasons are too long for the strategy element to feel that significant, so we're looking to tweak that for future seasons.

    More generally, we do want to make future developments to Club Events, but we're actually prioritising other features suggested by the community right now, which we started during the load testing period for Club Events. If you don't like Club Events, rest assured, we're not looking to make the game just about that feature. We're going to continue to make improvements and additions unrelated to Club Events.
    Btw you forgot to calculate prize gold from dailies. It’s 100-350 gold per week additionally. Depends on how do you smurf. 
    And the maximum of 7 Ceramics if I win every Daylie!
  • TopDivesTopDives Member Posts: 595 ✭✭✭
    THE LONE WOLF brought to you by Hutch_Tim :smile:



  • NinjaDesignzNinjaDesignz Member Posts: 2,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bobdylan said:
    I think for me what's been lost is farming .


    Farming isnt ment to be fun 
    Its ment to be farming 

    I didnt do the same race series over and over and over again on grand turismo 3 because it was fun .
    I worked hard , repetitive, boring  .... a grind .

    I feel we have lost the grind 

    Wasnt in one of the matrix movies where they said at first we made the simulation perfect but every one rejected it. 

    The grind was hard it was dull it was tedious.... however you didnt have to think about it at all so it was at the same time easy...

    I personally miss the no thought involved  grind 


    (If this comment receives 10 agrees I should get a free plastic... just sayin)
    I think you should get 1 plastic for each agree honestly 
  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Member Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Are we really suggesting that we want the grind itself, not that we want smarfing because it happened to be really effective at getting us more packs?

    Because I can't get behind that
  • LittleEnosBurdetteLittleEnosBurdette Member Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bobdylan said:
    I think for me what's been lost is farming .


    Farming isnt ment to be fun 
    Its ment to be farming 

    I didnt do the same race series over and over and over again on grand turismo 3 because it was fun .
    I worked hard , repetitive, boring  .... a grind .

    I feel we have lost the grind 

    Wasnt in one of the matrix movies where they said at first we made the simulation perfect but every one rejected it. 

    The grind was hard it was dull it was tedious.... however you didnt have to think about it at all so it was at the same time easy...

    I personally miss the no thought involved  grind 


    (If this comment receives 10 agrees I should get a free plastic... just sayin)
    Have a disagree on me. 
  • bobdylanbobdylan Member Posts: 3,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Smurfing was good because it was easy . 
    Pick 5 random naff cars n race ... easy 
    Took zero effort and took all of a few mins.
    Now I have to find a club event look at the score the restrictions the track conditions then get in select a car set race it to win in the right orders ... I'm doing all that in the normal events

    Lot more time n effort 
    The grind was dead easy 
  • mikesmikes Member Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5
    A random free aluminum pack each day has been nice. I'll take more of those for the time being :#
  • mauro07mauro07 Member Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    and about clubs are a second job? not mention in your answer!!
    and why are we beta tester when few gold cost a lot fo $$$ and same thing for packs???
  • MSteeLMSteeL Member Posts: 863 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5
    Make the clubs a weekly event each month with better prizes and bring back dailies...
    12h each territory event so that you can make some strategy and comunication with others. 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bobdylan said:
    I think for me what's been lost is farming .


    Farming isnt ment to be fun 
    Its ment to be farming 

    I didnt do the same race series over and over and over again on grand turismo 3 because it was fun .
    I worked hard , repetitive, boring  .... a grind .

    I feel we have lost the grind 

    Wasnt in one of the matrix movies where they said at first we made the simulation perfect but every one rejected it. 

    The grind was hard it was dull it was tedious.... however you didnt have to think about it at all so it was at the same time easy...

    I personally miss the no thought involved  grind 


    (If this comment receives 10 agrees I should get a free plastic... just sayin)

    I actually also feel like the mindless part of the play was also appealing.

    If we have a couple events each day where top 10 wins a ceramic, i will go for the top. That takes thought and effort for my garage. The daily was always there to allow me to just throw out a hand and pick up some easy wins. 

    There was also a challenge there, to win but also allow others to win. A delicate balancing act I enjoyed, and a challenge in not dropping 3 stars by winning by less than 250 in a smarf hand (grrr that happens to me alot - honda beats aren't smurfs guys!).

    I really did like this game. I have been vocal in my support (mostly) throughout the year and half I've been around. But now it is too time consuming. Even if they gave me extra cash or prizeboards to play clubs i would find it too time consuming. I need it to be mindless, and rewarding at the same time.


  • JacoJaco Member Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6
    I hope some players are planning the lone wolf strategy here. Otherwise it looks like the members of one of the strongest clans aren't much interrested to continue playing 🤔
  • kolov7kolov7 Member Posts: 164 ✭✭✭
    Jaco said:
    I hope some players are planning the lone wolf strategy here. Otherwise it looks like the members of one of the strongest clans aren't much interrested to continue playing 🤔
    We do this all the time,but in long term ur right
  • UltimateUltimate Member Posts: 777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6
    I appreciate that you made a detailed response @Hutch_Tim, this is the sort communication we’ve been waiting for.

    Let me understand you correctly, you are unable to reintroduce dailies because there’s no off code for clubs and if you don’t turn off clubs there are concerns to inflation.

    I can see that can be a bind. If I may offer a suggestion - you are able to set the length of club seasons correct? And you can also lock off sectors? If you can set a very long end time at the same time disabling every sector, in essence you can effectively stop clubs from playing until you want to run it as special event. And you could also set all rewards to zero if you’re worried that we will get free resources at seasons end.

    Will that buy you time to fix the code? Would that help you to bring dailies back?

    Granted clubs are going to look a bit ugly for a while, but if you made a detailed post on both forums on why it is that way, that you’ve listen to the players by reinstating dailies, I really don’t think anyone would mind, in fact the vast majority of players will support your decision and be absolutely stoked that dailies are back.

    Think about it. You’ve the tools to make things right and get us back onboard, that’s going to be worth a whole lot.
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