Economy balance update, 28th June 2019

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Comments

  • UltimateUltimate Posts: 777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think Prize cars should be allowed in finals, maybe they should incur a extra rq penalty in the event of a final or a limit of of 0-1 prize cars allowed instead of the strict “no prize cars”. Or even more radical, you can choose between 2 different categories for finals-

    1. No prize cars allowed - normal prize set up
    2. Prize cars allowed - boosted prizes (more gold, cash and guaranteed cfs for all tiers)
  • hifichrishifichris Posts: 560 ✭✭✭
    Moog said:
    re:prize cars in finals. The problem with allowing them is that they give too much advantage? To me, that means that they're not balanced correctly in terms of RQ. The RQ system needs expanding, then cars won't be overpowered for their RQ and they'd be free to be used in finals.

    No, the problem is new player will never win anything even spending a lot because of this prizes. Rq doesn't change anything.
    I don t want to be smatched by long term players if i have the chance to do something on a final.
  • NinjaDesignzNinjaDesignz Posts: 2,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ultimate said:
    Anyways, having been segue onto rq and prize car issues, we should probably return to the issue at hand: when are going to see the prizeboards returned to their original value? 
    Yeah can we get an update for this Hutch? You've been silent ever since we had those stats from Tim.
  • bantel_catbantel_cat Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How about this as a compromise Hutch?

    Up the resale value of E & F from 125/250 to 250/500?

    It would also sort of smooth out the value increases up the rarity bands:

    Now

    125/250/1000/2500/12500/65000/275000

    or in relative terms to lower rarity
     /2x/4x/2.5x/5x/5(ish)x/4(ish)x

    New

    250/500/1000/2500/12500/65000/275000
     /2x/2x/2.5x/5x/5(ish)x/4(ish)x

    What is that, an extra 1000 odd per prize board, hardly going to inflate a minuscule balloon let alone bring the world of TD crashing down
  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,928 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would favor a raise to previous prizeboards, not some small compromiss that leaves us with empty pockets. 750 or 1k cash , 1 common, 2 uncommon, 3 rares. Gold is ok as this compensates from clubs.
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In Hutch’s defence they have added a whole bunch extra cash in the weekly challenge as they figure out the farm issue. They fucked up by lowering the prize boards but they’ve given us a bunch extra cash on the side while they try to figure out a solution atleast 🤷‍♂️

    The lack of communication is annoying tho 
    And they have taken away the B class cars and have replaced them by "themed" ceramic packs, where you have a lower chance to get a B class Car.

    We can play this game on and on. For every usefull thing they do, they take something other away. At least when we are looking at the last weeks to months.
  • baestbaest Posts: 551 ✭✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    HeissRod said:
    2) I used to be able to open ceramics on a fairly regular basis.  I haven’t bought a single one in over a week now, because I’m worried about my cash balance.
    The situation is bad, but it's not that bad. I'm still smarfing most events, where I have no chance for a top tier finish. By clearing the nerfed prizeboards and selling all the cars I can usually earn enough to buy two Ceramics per day. At the end of the day, or when I reach a milestone in the weekly challange, the cash I get is enough for a third one sometimes. So let's say I can buy 2-3 Ceramics daily. Before the "re-balance" that number was more like 4-5. These numbers are of course only true if I don't upgrade a single car meanwhile. And that's where the feeling of being poor comes from I think. We are all addicted to opening Ceramics, and after the nerf, we still want to open as much as we can. Now every upgrade and fuse feels like pulling a tooth, because we can barley open enough packs to satisfy our hunger. Before PL9 you could improve your garage a bit, and still open a decent number of packs. Now, you cannot really do either. That's what makes us feel the cash situation even worse than what the stats show.
    The other side of the coin here is that to be consistently competitive in clubs, you need a strong and varied garage - and more upgraded cars than ever.
  • REALAISREALAIS Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭
    Ultimate said:
    Anyways, having been segue onto rq and prize car issues, we should probably return to the issue at hand: when are going to see the prizeboards returned to their original value? 
    Like never. If with Daily removal there was big movement then with new prizeboards its already silence for many weeks. And we are making more cash in general.  
    I doubt for old prizeboards to come back because everything else is slightly boosted. Look at weekly challenge, for last 3 weeks it is guaranteed 50k+ and Ceramic for regular players. Events pay more at the end. I dont see Hutch to reverse that, because large amount of players dont have dailies to farm too. RQ149. 

    I can see prizeboards getting boosted if Hutch thinks thats time to increase  players cash flow after maybe 2-3-4 updates.
  • REALAISREALAIS Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭
    Ultimate said:
    Anyways, having been segue onto rq and prize car issues, we should probably return to the issue at hand: when are going to see the prizeboards returned to their original value? 
    Like never. If with Daily removal there was big movement then with new prizeboards its already silence for many weeks. And we are making more cash in general.  
    I doubt for old prizeboards to come back because everything else is slightly boosted. Look at weekly challenge, for last 3 weeks it is guaranteed 50k+ and Ceramic for regular players. Events pay more at the end. I dont see Hutch to reverse that, because large amount of players dont have dailies to farm too. RQ149. 

    I can see prizeboards getting boosted if Hutch thinks thats time to increase  players cash flow after maybe 2-3-4 updates.
  • StrixStrix Posts: 99 ✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    I'd love to see some stats about the number of cash ceramic packs opened, for players who spend a similar amount of time playing before/after the clubs and economy balancing. Feel free to use me as one of those players. :)
    I'd love to see stats on how the number of tickets spent by previously very active players has developed after the change. Feel free to use my data for that if you can find me.

    I really want to continue with this game after all I've invested in time and money, but I find it really difficult to find the motivation now. Farming cash for ceramics was the only viable route to improve my garage through gameplay, as fighting for alu packs in brackets of doom feels absolutely pointless, and extremely demotivating. Used to play most tickets. After the prize change it feels like my motivation dropped over the night. It suddenly feels like a chore. I never felt that way about smurfing, which is probably the opposite of what Hutch thought.
  • sinnersinner Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I’ve stopped being P2P and have gone full F2P after the 405 Pikes debacle. Tried to be ‘good’ in the 8C Qualifiers and Prelims and play all three days. Was a painful three day grind to finish 14th and 12th, and pull a couple of low RQ SRs from the Ceramics. Will be late-joining the Final, probably T-3 or so.

    Clubs are still rubbish and I only ever bother to play the high RQ Club events as the effort required to put together a suitable low RQ hand completely outweighs the benefits. The continued offering of multiple CFs for every single event, and 15 of them in Tri-Series, is just cynical, and creating a group of low trophy count whales who just throw cash at the game. That’s killing the core appeal of this game, which is strategy. Strategy just doesn’t factor in when cash can override it entirely. I’m sure that many of us could throw a lot more cash at this to compete, but having done that for a couple of events it’s just deeply unsatisfying, and frankly I can spend my money on far better things. For example, the £20 I spent on Far Cry New Dawn has kept me entertained for the last couple of weeks. That would buy me 1.5 CFs. 

    Will see how it goes for the next few weeks, but this may well be the precursor to a complete exit for me. It’s a shame, because the core game is still fun, but all of the stuff that’s built up around it is just unpleasant. 
    Completely agree. I've also become 100% FTP now and actually just play a lot less. Hanging in there for the Austin challenge at the moment. 
  • AnzatoroAnzatoro Posts: 316 ✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    Every action since the release of this game has been to increase the cost to the player. This is the latest. Hutch are turning players away and those guys are simply voicing their disapproval. 


    Exactly. Hutch like almost every other gaming company are slowly but steadily increasing the cost to everything ingame because they want more money, they will always do (which i despise because if you have a successful product that brings you money, DONT go greedy because you will lose what you already have by turning the players away).

    The latest actions from Hutch to eliminate smurfing have a simple meaning that follows the above: They did not have a satisfying income from cash packs in the shop because many players got their cash from smurfing, so eliminating it creates possibilities to raise the cash pack income because players will either buy (from starving) or leave.
     
    I really dont know if they are going to win that bet because for sure people who spend will quit, maybe Hutch will lose money eventually.


    Basil said:

    I play this game more than a year 

    Wait, i thought you said somewhere you play this game for less than 6 months or something, now its over a year?
  • sinnersinner Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I’ve stopped being P2P and have gone full F2P after the 405 Pikes debacle. Tried to be ‘good’ in the 8C Qualifiers and Prelims and play all three days. Was a painful three day grind to finish 14th and 12th, and pull a couple of low RQ SRs from the Ceramics. Will be late-joining the Final, probably T-3 or so.

    Clubs are still rubbish and I only ever bother to play the high RQ Club events as the effort required to put together a suitable low RQ hand completely outweighs the benefits. The continued offering of multiple CFs for every single event, and 15 of them in Tri-Series, is just cynical, and creating a group of low trophy count whales who just throw cash at the game. That’s killing the core appeal of this game, which is strategy. Strategy just doesn’t factor in when cash can override it entirely. I’m sure that many of us could throw a lot more cash at this to compete, but having done that for a couple of events it’s just deeply unsatisfying, and frankly I can spend my money on far better things. For example, the £20 I spent on Far Cry New Dawn has kept me entertained for the last couple of weeks. That would buy me 1.5 CFs. 

    Will see how it goes for the next few weeks, but this may well be the precursor to a complete exit for me. It’s a shame, because the core game is still fun, but all of the stuff that’s built up around it is just unpleasant. 
    Completely agree. I've also become 100% FTP now and actually just play a lot less. Hanging in there for the Austin challenge at the moment. 
  • TNThomasTNThomas Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
    Blue2moro said:
    Hutch_Tim said:
    @Hutch_Tim
    thank you taking the time to research the topic and write such a detailed answer. I really appreciate that you keep in contact with us.

    It might be entirely correct, that the cash flow is more or less similar if you look deep into the numbers. But here's the thing, TD is not a model of economy, we're not perfectly rational actors all the time. The game feels significantly more grindy, feels less fun, feels like we're earning less. You can't expect us to do a math homework on our income to convince ourselves that, hmm okay, my earnings are only 2% down under my standard routine therefore I still like the game.

    If it doesn't feel fun we'll stop doing it.

    - I wondered exactly how badly incomes were hit given how disappointed some people were by the change - it sounded like they had dropped by 50% or something, but it's not that extreme. If I exclude the 1 out of the 7 forumers who stopped playing entirely for a day, the average drop in cash earned/day among the rest is 14%
    - So then it seems like efficiency must be what feels worse, but among those 6 who stayed active, cash-per-match dropped 15%, cash-per-minute (more important?) dropped just 4%

    So because I felt so disillusioned with the changes to the point I uninstalled the game for over a day you're just going to discount my figures entirely? Well, that's disappointing. I have no problem with you publishing my stats. Maybe I'm an extreme outlier but I feel like I've gone from playing hours upon hours a day earning 100k+ most days to literally single race clubs 5 or 6 times a day and late joining every event. In fact todays daily is the 1st event I entered to smarf a bit just to see if I can be bothered anymore. But, no, you're right, I stopped playing for 1 day so ignore the hell out of me.  :(
    If I would do that in university, just exclude the data set I don't like, my professor would be get mad. However, 'we' seem to like it (14 likes on Tim's post as I am writing this). So I personally think the fact 1 out of 7 long-time players stopped playing is even more impressive/striking than the data of the other 6 players.

    I am currently playing once a day on average, just to enter all events to get the rewards. If this stays this way, I will lose interest in the game, which I would really dislike, since it was a great game!
  • 0171801718 Posts: 494 ✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    @01718
     Why remove dailies though? We just went through that whole debacle of removing something that players wanted. It is the easiest way to farm some cash from the game when you don't have that much time during the day. 

    The bottom line is, nothing should be removed from the game unless the majority of players want it gone. 93% of those polled wanted the daily in. 

    Clubs needs work, not dailies. 
    In my suggestion you get prize boards in Clubs. To take iNfLaTIon into account it would be reasonable to remove Daily events in a quid pro quo manner. Other reasons why I suggested the removal of Dailies under the assumption, that you get prize boards in clubs:

    - it was the original intention of Hutch to remove Dailies
    - Dailies were considered boring and have low tier prizes
    - Players are stressed because there are so many opportunities to race (that's why I also suggested to slow down clubs even more)

    I also see that my suggestion would have to be considered carefully. If adding prize boards to clubs encourages players to smurf in clubs, this would undermine the team-competition aspect of clubs. So maybe this is the reason why we cannot have prize boards in clubs?? If this is a concern Hutch shares, we would be in a tough spot: By adding more racing opportunities Hutch created an additional source of income and every rebalancing of prizes between Club, Daily, other events and the challenge to sort of equalies pre and post 9.0 rewards will always **** off some people, because (a) it means that prizes for some strategies are lowerd and/or (b) you have to grind harder for the same revenue.

    There are two ways out of this dilemma:
    (1) Hutch accepts, that by increasing the car pool (which is a deflation of cash/gold), an inflation of prizes is not a bad thing.
    (2) We accept, that the game has changed and we either adapt our strategies, lower our expectations or leave.
  • malsmals Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:

    Any economy rebalance will provoke debate. Top Drives is coming up to 2 years old and is doing well; we all want Top Drives to continue to thrive for as long as possible, but not everyone will agree on how exactly the economy should work to help that happen.

    We have many different types of players and play-styles to consider, and balancing them will always be hard. Club Events was our first major attempt to tune the economy to work best for the long term. 

    While we have access to the data that tells us how the game is working, we recognise it doesn’t tell the whole story, which is why we pay attention to what players tell us about their experience of the game.

    At this point we thought it would be helpful to take the unusual step of sharing some of the data with you, so you can better understand how the game is working as a whole, and we can have a more informed discussion.

    The TL;DR version:
    Average RQ150 players are making more money now than before.
    The 1% most active RQ150 players are making a bit more money now than before, but are doing significantly more races to achieve that.
    We will continue as planned for now and review again in a week.


    First, a recap on recent history:

    Clubs to replace Dailies and remove Smarfing
    Smarfing: playing terrible cards to sink to the bottom of the leaderboard, so you can get easy 3-star wins. Aka the most efficient way to make money in Top Drives.

    As Schmidti said, you could say we kind of created a “farming monster” - there are a lot (not a majority, but a lot) of players smarfing and quite used to it. We always thought it wasn’t ideal that smarfing earned such huge rewards (compared to other things), that you should spend so many tickets  playing in a non-competitive way. TD42792 correctly identified a big part of the issue too: the biggest imbalance that smarfing creates is between smarfers and non-smarfers.

    Players have raised the question of how newer players might be able to catch up with older ones. Roughly 50% of high-trophy (6000+) RQ150 players smarf, compared to 25% of low-trophy (<500) RQ150 players. That means a lot of those low-trophy players are being constantly outpaced, and not by a small amount either.

    So, we came up with Club Events as an alternative to the highly-smarfable and (based on typical daily feedback) generally-disliked Daily: a way to earn money by winning, in an environment where you had some choice over requirements, and with a more interesting wider strategy element to it. You could make a bit of money by entering and racing in a few events; if you raced in more events, and did more races, you make more money - much more intuitive than the complete switch you have to make to smarf.

    So, hopefully farmers would embrace this new way to make their money, and those low-trophy RQ150 players could see a more intuitive way to increase their earnings - do more in Clubs.

    Replacing Dailies with Club Events also had the benefit of adding a new game-mode in Top Drives without universally increasing cash and gold in the game - inflation. To get right to the point on that subject - to have Top Drives thrive for a long time, we obviously do need it to continue to make money; it’s easy to imagine that if all sources of in-game gold doubled, the effective value of IAPs for gold would halve. That’s an extreme example, but if every new mode added new sources of income, we would continue to step in that direction, so we do need to be careful about it.


    The Response to Clubs
    Players told us quite emphatically that the Daily was too important to lose: the ability to play your strongest hands; the cards for upgrades; the instant gratification; the mental effort/earning ratio. Club Events are supposed to be more entertaining than the daily, but many players were feeling it was just more effort for less reward.

    Daily but with less farming
    We realised we couldn’t improve Club Events as much as needed by tuning the dynamic aspects (rewards, season length etc), or even with a few quick features - but we still wanted to reduce the significance of smarfing. So, we proposed a compromise: return daily events (with a bit more variety in the rotation), add more cars to prize boards but reduce their overall value, and put more cash in end-of-event prizes instead. My post intimating this idea (perhaps with too much subtlety) didn’t go down well (link), but when Robin proposed a more detailed version (link) and clarified it involved the Daily (or something extremely similar) coming back, it was a lot more popular, so we figured we had a good solution.


    The Response to 'less farming'

    Now PL9 is here and we have been starting to find out how the rebalance feels and plays out in practice. Although Club event cash hasn’t been reduced yet, and Challenge cash will increase from this weekend, we can still take an early view.

    In terms of community response, as we would expect, people who smarfed the most are the most affected, and the least happy with the changes. Some of the people who didn’t smarf do seem to like the increased cash prizes for events. It’s definitely been a more mixed response than just removing the Daily.

    In terms of the data on what people are actually achieving under the new system, it’s hard to be certain of things as both the new cars and the auto-hand-forget bug are likely to alter people’s behaviour. Factoring out the spike in activity around a new launch though, we can now see the following.

    We considered players of all types, but the most interesting here are probably RQ150 players, with low vs. high trophies, and average players of each type vs. the top 1% most active. Since Clubs have been out for 37 days, we looked across the time period from 37 days before Clubs through to 37 days after, and identified the 1% most active players across that whole period.

    If we compare how things are now (with the rebalanced prizes and Clubs, after the PL9 activity spike) vs. how they were before Clubs was introduced, we see the following:

    • Average RQ 150 player: They are playing 9% more matches (Daily events, non-daily events and Club events) and making 7% more cash.
    • RQ150 with < 500 trophies: 7% fewer matches, 4% more cash
    • RQ150 with 6k+ trophies: 23% more matches, 15% more cash
    • 1% most active RQ150: 44% more matches (from 72/day to 103/day), 9% more cash
    • 1% most active RQ150 <500 trophies: 60% more matches (from 68/day to 108/day), 17% more cash

    So what does this tell us?

    • Average earnings are up.
    • The most active players are also making more cash.
    • But - the most active players are getting significantly less cash-per-race...
    • ... and lower trophy players are actually doing fewer races, which is probably not ideal.

    So what next?
    This analysis is only a snapshot - just as important is how things change over time. It’s also important to consider how the game feels to play, as that can help us predict how it will change - if the average player is making more money, but is less happy, they are less likely to stick around. The data doesn’t tell us how people feel, so of course we will continue to listen to your feedback and ideas.

    For now we will continue with the plan, adjusting Club prizes and Challenge prizes, and continue to observe the data and collect feedback. We’ll do another update like this in a week.

    Yes, you are right and all players are wrong,  happy?
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