General Discussion

Economy balance update, 28th June 2019

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  • BoxtaSBoxtaS Member Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @01718 I think we should also consider that any subjective opinions that have been disproofen, have been disproofened by Hutch’s data, in Hutch’s favour. 
  • tichoblintichoblin Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You know, guys? I used to make 100-150k daily when I was playing actively.. 
    I made 300k within 2 days easily within new gameplay. I played maybe 5-7 times clubs each day. I smurfed actively finishing in 2nd tier and, I must say, it works for me. 
    I allow hutch to use my data to compare. 
  • justjukiejustjukie Member Posts: 78 ✭✭✭
    tichoblin said:
    You know, guys? I used to make 100-150k daily when I was playing actively.. 
    I made 300k within 2 days easily within new gameplay. I played maybe 5-7 times clubs each day. I smurfed actively finishing in 2nd tier and, I must say, it works for me. 
    I allow hutch to use my data to compare. 
    So you just said you are making the same as used to by doing more? I don't know which side of the argument you are falling on.
  • UltimateUltimate Member Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don’t doubt that you can make good cash from clubs especially if you have the doubler on. But how many people have the time to do that and how many people can finish most events T1 or T2 at the same time? I reckon you have a particularly strong garage to be able to do both, which is not the case for the majority of players, and definitely not for new f2p players
  • tichoblintichoblin Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    justjukie said:
    tichoblin said:
    You know, guys? I used to make 100-150k daily when I was playing actively.. 
    I made 300k within 2 days easily within new gameplay. I played maybe 5-7 times clubs each day. I smurfed actively finishing in 2nd tier and, I must say, it works for me. 
    I allow hutch to use my data to compare. 
    So you just said you are making the same as used to by doing more? I don't know which side of the argument you are falling on.
    Not exactly, if you read carefully. I said that I used to make 100-150k before, when I was playing actively. Have you made that much? 
    I haven’t played clubs much recently. Choosing them properly helped me have nice yield, but what helped me really is combination of smurfing and finishing in 2 tier.  But, yes, you need to have an above mediocore garage to reach it.
  • bantel_catbantel_cat Member Posts: 750 ✭✭✭✭
    tichoblin said:
    You know, guys? I used to make 100-150k daily when I was playing actively.. 
    I made 300k within 2 days easily within new gameplay. I played maybe 5-7 times clubs each day. I smurfed actively finishing in 2nd tier and, I must say, it works for me. 
    I allow hutch to use my data to compare. 
    Really? I'd love to hear how because that seems rather unlikely. Even if you did 30 races each visit which would be as tedious as hell
  • justjukiejustjukie Member Posts: 78 ✭✭✭
    edited July 10
    tichoblin said:
    justjukie said:
    tichoblin said:
    You know, guys? I used to make 100-150k daily when I was playing actively.. 
    I made 300k within 2 days easily within new gameplay. I played maybe 5-7 times clubs each day. I smurfed actively finishing in 2nd tier and, I must say, it works for me. 
    I allow hutch to use my data to compare. 
    So you just said you are making the same as used to by doing more? I don't know which side of the argument you are falling on.
    Not exactly, if you read carefully. I said that I used to make 100-150k before, when I was playing actively. Have you made that much? 
    I haven’t played clubs much recently. Choosing them properly helped me have nice yield, but what helped me really is combination of smurfing and finishing in 2 tier.  But, yes, you need to have an above mediocore garage to reach it.
    Yes I read. You said 100-150k daily and you made 300k in 2 days. 300/2= 150k. So same income except you now play clubs on top of the same events you used to play. Increased effort for minimal increase in reward. The whole argument in this thread and the same thing that showed in the Hutch statistics. If you worked 50% more time at work for only 9% increase in pay. You would side with your employer?
  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11
    01718 said:
    RobGripes said:
    @01718
     Why remove dailies though? We just went through that whole debacle of removing something that players wanted. It is the easiest way to farm some cash from the game when you don't have that much time during the day. 

    The bottom line is, nothing should be removed from the game unless the majority of players want it gone. 93% of those polled wanted the daily in. 

    Clubs needs work, not dailies. 
    In my suggestion you get prize boards in Clubs. To take iNfLaTIon into account it would be reasonable to remove Daily events in a quid pro quo manner. Other reasons why I suggested the removal of Dailies under the assumption, that you get prize boards in clubs:

    - it was the original intention of Hutch to remove Dailies
    - Dailies were considered boring and have low tier prizes
    - Players are stressed because there are so many opportunities to race (that's why I also suggested to slow down clubs even more)

    I also see that my suggestion would have to be considered carefully. If adding prize boards to clubs encourages players to smurf in clubs, this would undermine the team-competition aspect of clubs. So maybe this is the reason why we cannot have prize boards in clubs?? If this is a concern Hutch shares, we would be in a tough spot: By adding more racing opportunities Hutch created an additional source of income and every rebalancing of prizes between Club, Daily, other events and the challenge to sort of equalies pre and post 9.0 rewards will always **** off some people, because (a) it means that prizes for some strategies are lowerd and/or (b) you have to grind harder for the same revenue.

    There are two ways out of this dilemma:
    (1) Hutch accepts, that by increasing the car pool (which is a deflation of cash/gold), an inflation of prizes is not a bad thing.
    (2) We accept, that the game has changed and we either adapt our strategies, lower our expectations or leave.

     Dailies were considered boring but the fact is from the poll ie data, that players didn't want them removed. Yet you suggested to remove the daily.

    Adding prizeboards to clubs isn't going to work (without other rebalancing). As you pointed out some players will choose to smarf it and this is against the play-to-win mentality of a team event. Aside from that, you need to understand that for a big group of players clubs isn't suitable due to time commitments. 

    I like clubs on occasion when a really good battle is going on, but that is very rare. Most of the time it is just spamming races over and over again to rack up numbers. The major goal of any game is to be fun and this doesn't cut it! 

    Your point #2, is that we need to adapt or leave but Hutch shouldn't want us to leave. They should want us to stay and spend. Even f2p players have value as the more players they have the more they can charge for advertising.

    I get the impression you are trying to formulate ideas that help both hutch and also players but imho (and not to be rude here) you're disregarding what players want. Don't forget it is the players that make a game. This is how consumerism works. If you make a t-shirt that gives wearers a nasty rash, sure they might have bought it once, but they will throw it away and warn others not to buy it. 

    Post edited by RobGripes on
  • lemmings99olemmings99o Member Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd be pretty sure my income is way down but so is my play time, it just doesn't seem as rewarding currently.
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Member Posts: 175 ✭✭✭
    I only do what Hutch_Tim or was it Hutch_Robin recommended us to do:
    I try to farm Club Events. I snipe every Club event possible, nothing more. I only join the events we are going to win to get my 50xp per day and a little bit of cash.
    Because this mode is just no fun and only work...
  • jczerojczero Member Posts: 655 ✭✭✭✭
    I only do what Hutch_Tim or was it Hutch_Robin recommended us to do:
    I try to farm Club Events. I snipe every Club event possible, nothing more. I only join the events we are going to win to get my 50xp per day and a little bit of cash.
    Because this mode is just no fun and only work...
    You sound like you are a prisoner of the communist’s Soviet Union, maybe you need some changes if you aren’t enjoying the game. 
  • TGPDTGPD Member Posts: 5,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jczero said:
    I only do what Hutch_Tim or was it Hutch_Robin recommended us to do:
    I try to farm Club Events. I snipe every Club event possible, nothing more. I only join the events we are going to win to get my 50xp per day and a little bit of cash.
    Because this mode is just no fun and only work...
    You sound like you are a prisoner of the communist’s Soviet Union, maybe you need some changes if you aren’t enjoying the game. 
    In great Britain top drives enjoys your money

  • 0171801718 Member Posts: 59 ✭✭
    jczero said:
    01718 said:
    @BoxtaS I don't want to speculate and argue about the 15 CF Packs and their influence on winning a prize car, since I lack the experience. However, the subjective opinions on several matters regarding the economy have been proofen wrong by data, which is what we all should consider.

    @Huskic69 It is just logical, that your income decreases if you dont change your strategies...
    Since you reckon the fact that you lack experience, maybe you shouldn’t be judging others or speak at all in the first place, you are only misleading and they are being polite to not point it out. 

    Plus, stop sending people private message to ask them what club they belong, nobody is really interested in joining your collective chat of massive no-life farming clan. 
    Thank you for opening my eyes! You are absolutely right, only players who have at least 3 legendary Prize Cars are qualified to have and utter an opinion! I am also very sorry for trying to create a community around clubs.
  • BasilBasil Member Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    tichoblin said:
    You know, guys? I used to make 100-150k daily when I was playing actively.. 
    I made 300k within 2 days easily within new gameplay. I played maybe 5-7 times clubs each day. I smurfed actively finishing in 2nd tier and, I must say, it works for me. 
    I allow hutch to use my data to compare. 
    Hutch-Tim is that you ?? :-)
  • 0171801718 Member Posts: 59 ✭✭
    RobGripes said:


     Dailies were considered boring but the fact is from the poll ie data, that players didn't want them removed. Yet you suggested to remove the daily.

    Adding prizeboards to clubs isn't going to work (without other rebalancing). As you pointed out some players will choose to smarf it and this is against the play-to-win mentality of a team event. Aside from that, you need to understand that for a big group of players clubs isn't suitable due to time commitments. 

    I like clubs on occasion when a really good battle is going on, but that is very rare. Most of the time it is just spamming races over and over again to rack up numbers. The major goal of any game is to be fun and this doesn't cut it! 

    Your point #2, is that we need to adapt or leave but Hutch shouldn't want us to leave. They should want us to stay and spend. Even f2p players have value as the more players they have the more they can charge for advertising.

    I get the impression you are trying to formulate ideas that help both hutch and also players but imho (and not to be rude here) you're disregarding what players want. Don't forget it is the players that make a game. This is how consumerism works. If you make a t-shirt that gives wearers a nasty rash, sure they might have bought it once, but they will throw it away and warn others not to buy it. 

    Hey Rob,

    did players like the Daily Event or the ability to earn cash&cars effortlessly? I think it is the latter and I merely suggested an equivalent compensation*. Please consider that before you conclude that I disregard what players want. This central question is by the way not easy to answer, most certainly not by a post hoc poll like it was conducted in the in game forum. Players differ by a lot of factors and I think we should not pretend to "just know" the right answer. It's complicated and perhaps (obviously?) Hutch did't spend enough time thinking this through. Also, while maintaining the fun part of the game, Hutch's should probably not *just* follow what the players want, because usually they want free stuff :D.

    Personally I think that you can make as much money with clubs as with smurfing the Daily before the prize board nerf. I don't understand why smurfing therefor was considered fun while sniping club events isn't considered fun. But opinions may differ.

    *However I agree that it is perhaps not a good idea to remove Dailies again after that poll :)

  • RobGripesRobGripes Member Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also, regarding your first question: i think the latter is more likely, but not the complete story.

    Earning is important but without putting huge amounts of effort into clubs we can't match our previous incomes
  • UltimateUltimate Member Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What I don’t get is clubs has the potential to out-strip dailies and events in cash earnings even with a full 8k prize board. Plus prize boards are limited to tickets so there’s a finite amount of cash to be made unless you spend 100g to buy 8k (or less cash) and yet its the prize boards that are nerfed. Shouldn’t it be the other way round if “inflation” is the problem? Stop the near infinite cash cow that clubs is suppose to be for a slower more predictable prize board? Oh sorry clubs is intended to be a boring mess that way people couldn’t be bothered to make cash from it, is that the logic here?
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Member Posts: 175 ✭✭✭
    edited July 11
    jczero said:
    I only do what Hutch_Tim or was it Hutch_Robin recommended us to do:
    I try to farm Club Events. I snipe every Club event possible, nothing more. I only join the events we are going to win to get my 50xp per day and a little bit of cash.
    Because this mode is just no fun and only work...
    You sound like you are a prisoner of the communist’s Soviet Union, maybe you need some changes if you aren’t enjoying the game. 
    Please Comrade, the changes are the reason why I don't enjoy the game anymore lol
    Post edited by Mrpiratepete on
  • tichoblintichoblin Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    justjukie said:
    tichoblin said:
    justjukie said:
    tichoblin said:
    You know, guys? I used to make 100-150k daily when I was playing actively.. 
    I made 300k within 2 days easily within new gameplay. I played maybe 5-7 times clubs each day. I smurfed actively finishing in 2nd tier and, I must say, it works for me. 
    I allow hutch to use my data to compare. 
    So you just said you are making the same as used to by doing more? I don't know which side of the argument you are falling on.
    Not exactly, if you read carefully. I said that I used to make 100-150k before, when I was playing actively. Have you made that much? 
    I haven’t played clubs much recently. Choosing them properly helped me have nice yield, but what helped me really is combination of smurfing and finishing in 2 tier.  But, yes, you need to have an above mediocore garage to reach it.
    Yes I read. You said 100-150k daily and you made 300k in 2 days. 300/2= 150k. So same income except you now play clubs on top of the same events you used to play. Increased effort for minimal increase in reward. The whole argument in this thread and the same thing that showed in the Hutch statistics. If you worked 50% more time at work for only 9% increase in pay. You would side with your employer?
    Don’t forget we had servers off twice these days. And I mentioned that I used to make 100-150k when I was playing actively. Anyway, I’m going to track my activity and income day by day to be more specific. Judging by my sensations I do more cash, playing less. But may be I’m wrong
  • tichoblintichoblin Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭
    tichoblin said:
    You know, guys? I used to make 100-150k daily when I was playing actively.. 
    I made 300k within 2 days easily within new gameplay. I played maybe 5-7 times clubs each day. I smurfed actively finishing in 2nd tier and, I must say, it works for me. 
    I allow hutch to use my data to compare. 
    Really? I'd love to hear how because that seems rather unlikely. Even if you did 30 races each visit which would be as tedious as hell
    I usually join events where I don’t need to spend 5 minutes figuring out which deck to use, race 5 times and check whether I can be top 10 or not. If it’s possible I race 5 times more. In most cases it’s enough to be top10. If I see the possibility to become mvp I can race more, but usually it’s not worth it. 
    Since my garage is diverse and pretty decent I don’t have to spend much time on matching cars and tracks - almost like while smurfing.
    I must say that I have an advantage as I can enter the game from time to time during work hours. 
  • ManUtdTobbeManUtdTobbe Member Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In Hutch’s defence they have added a whole bunch extra cash in the weekly challenge as they figure out the farm issue. They fucked up by lowering the prize boards but they’ve given us a bunch extra cash on the side while they try to figure out a solution atleast 🤷‍♂️

    The lack of communication is annoying tho 
  • milewski1015milewski1015 Member Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In Hutch’s defence they have added a whole bunch extra cash in the weekly challenge as they figure out the farm issue. They fucked up by lowering the prize boards but they’ve given us a bunch extra cash on the side while they try to figure out a solution atleast 🤷‍♂️

    The lack of communication is annoying tho 
    And they have taken away the B class cars and have replaced them by "themed" ceramic packs, where you have a lower chance to get a B class Car.

    We can play this game on and on. For every usefull thing they do, they take something other away. At least when we are looking at the last weeks/months.
    You make it sound like we had a B-class car every week. They came around a lot less frequently than the usual C-class, and were (at least historically) more difficult challenges to complete. Difficult to the point that people complained they were too difficult (the RS200 challenge comes to mind). 

    Personally I like the pack for the final prize. I do miss the ceramic after round 4 (which I hope will return after the cash economy is sorted) but I’d much rather have the chance for a B or higher for the final prize instead of just knowing I get a (generally) below average C-class that I most likely already have.
  • malsmals Member Posts: 99 ✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:.

    “What about CF packs, don’t they cause inflation, you big hypocrites?"
    Interesting question! I think it’s extremely rare for a developer to talk specifically about the impact of their special-offer strategy on the game’s economy, but since we’re talking in detail about all these other aspects, I can see why you would ask.

    Interestingly, our analysis finds that, on average, having these more regular CF offers convinces slightly more players to spend for the first time, rather than to convince existing spenders to spend more. In terms of inflation, the extra gold being spent is very small as a percentage, especially compared to the extra cash everyone would have if we had left everything alone and just added Club Events on top.

    I do also think it’s important to remember that an active player can earn around 1,500 gold a week, so it’s not like CF's are only bought by those that spend. A nice feature of these more regular CF offers (and a big reason we're still doing them) is that non-spenders (or lower-spending players) can fill gaps or choose to specialise a lot more easily than before. Previously, you could play Top Drives for months on end and never see a Ford CF, or a 70's CF, or a Motorsport one for example, so your ability to strategically shape your garage was very limited. As an analogy: someone who rolls 100 dice will have plenty of 4's (assuming 4's are something they want, for the periodic, er, 5x 4 events); someone who only rolls 10 dice might not have any 4's, and would appreciate a chance at a die more likely to give them one.

    In fact, this could be true, but then you offer us 15x to 1.599, send us a message with this fantastic offer and show us your real face.

    We need 25k gold only in qualy, about 150e... This is you real inflation. 
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