Ranking need to be fixed

malsmals Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
Nothing to add, this system doesnt work.

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Comments

  • RWareRWare Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll contribute:

    In the above image, I'm 37pts above 4th with 20 less losses.

    The above image is from the finals. There is a guy with 10 losses who was below 11th at one point, a guy with 339 losses. Guess which hand was better. 10 loss guy at one point was T2 because of the sheer amount of ticket spam.
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 6,936 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The first picture could be a result of spending more tickets attacking upwards.  I don't recall the exact value, but you get more points for beating someone above you than someone below.
  • malsmals Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    The first picture could be a result of spending more tickets attacking upwards.  I don't recall the exact value, but you get more points for beating someone above you than someone below.

    Almost all my victories are against him, and my loses too.

    This handicap is awful
  • RWareRWare Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    The first picture could be a result of spending more tickets attacking upwards.  I don't recall the exact value, but you get more points for beating someone above you than someone below.
    You are correct in that I notice I will gain on average 21 points racing 6/6 (3 places ahead) and only 18pts racing 1/6 (3 places below me)

    What I would appreciate from Hutch is clarification on how those values are then modified when we bring in variables such as a point gap and racing the same person x times. Where are the boundaries?

    I'm sure we've all raced someone and only got 10pts cos theyre miles away in pts only, not position.
  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 347 ✭✭✭
    Less, I've seen getting only 7 points, I can't figure it out what is the pattern though, Hatch should explain to us with more details how this new point system works
  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 347 ✭✭✭
    Yep... 7...

  • OzzmanOzzman Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My understanding is that they changed the scoring system to give early joiners an advantage by rewarding players who play more matches. I think ticket spamming is an unfortunate (for us) side effect, rather than the intended outcome. But as we can see, not even did it not discourage late(er) joining, but it made it even easier to catch up if you have a good hand. So the plan backfired badly, but sadly (for us) Hutch can still be happy with the results. They have to be careful though, because if anyhing can kill this game in the not so distant future, that's one of those things (for me at least).
    So here's an idea, that might bring us closer to the original intention. The current scoring system is fine until the point when new brackets are no longer created. You can build you lead until this point. From then until the end of the event however just either bring back the old scoring system or reduce the points for victories and losses even more. Could something like this work?
  • greddygreddy Posts: 1,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    You got only 15 points because of 550 point difference.

    Higher difference means less points. 
  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 347 ✭✭✭
    greddy said:
    You got only 15 points because of 550 point difference.

    Higher difference means less points. 
    Obviously, my point is that we don't know exactly at any range/any case.
    It must be a scaling that we should know how it works, unless is posted somewhere else and I am not aware of it.
  • 0171801718 Posts: 450 ✭✭✭
    I see we are discussing two different phenomena:
    [1] One is the big advantage of many matches played that encourages some players to spam tickets, I will call this the basic win-loss scoring difference.
    [2] The other is the bonus/malus system regarding (a) players above or below you in the ladder and (b) against players with a considerable gap of points.

    [1] The win-loss scoring difference: I will not argue that ticket spamming has not been encouraged by it, however I'm not sure how bad it actually is. Take a look at John Barker in @RWare 's post. Let's say he bought 180 additional tickets to create his wins, that is 36 * 100 gold. I would think, that he will have been forced to repair his cars at some points, so he is missing out on at least 2 CFs, probably much more. We should consider too, that he has to start the spam somewhat early and because his hand will be sub-par, the risk is high, that someone, who simply might have gotten more pack-luck, removes him from the top ten with little effort. Ticket spamming is a very costly strategy that will fail often. I have seriously considered some times to try and ticketspam me into t1, but I never did, because the prospects are so bad. Some of you guys make it sound like everyone could possibly ticketspam his way to the top - it is not like that. The guys really suffering here are those who have a hand that would barely make T1 but with a good chance to fail. They (and not guys like Stefano Storato) are drawn into those ticket wars. So if you want to criticize the new scoring system, you should draw the attention to that.

    [2] I'm not sure about this at all. On the one hand it is nice that those diminishing returns keep the competition open, on the other hand I can see that it is frustrating to win only 7 points. In the end, I'm sure, the stronger player will always keep the upper hand. Once the malus is diabled, because the gap is not big enough anymore, the scoring pattern is almost the same and the chaser will have it harder to overtake the leader.
  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 347 ✭✭✭
    TGPD said:
    greddy said:
    You got only 15 points because of 550 point difference.

    Higher difference means less points. 

    Lol.
    I challenge you to make it 1 point
  • malsmals Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    Hándicap isn't necessary, a victory is a victory.

    If you win you should get 20 points always, dont care if you are first with 500 points over the second position, or second with 500 points less, because with this method the rank only is important in the last 10 minutes, and you need play play and play spending tickets

    I know, this is a business, but many big players are lefting the game... one thing is clear, this ranking system is unfair
  • baestbaest Posts: 551 ✭✭✭✭
    TGPD said:
    greddy said:
    You got only 15 points because of 550 point difference.

    Higher difference means less points. 

    Lol.
    I challenge you to make it 1 point
    We're not for lack of tryin' haha
  • OzzmanOzzman Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭✭✭
    01718 said:
    They (and not guys like Stefano Storato) are drawn into those ticket wars. So if you want to criticize the new scoring system, you should draw the attention to that.
    I agree with most of what you wrote, but the above sentence is an exception. Looking at the screenshot, Stefano just managed to stay in (or get back into) T1 before the end, probably thanks to buying tickets (similar happened in my bracket). The ticket spammers with probably much worse hands were not far behind, and some of them managed to finish in T1. This is just wrong. If you're not active in the final minutes, and even buy tickets, you're not safe, not even with a superior hand. I can't imagine how mad I would have been if I were Stefano. And there were probably some cases where guys like him lost T1 in the final minutes.
  • David_FookDavid_Fook Posts: 2,715 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    01718 said:
    They (and not guys like Stefano Storato) are drawn into those ticket wars. So if you want to criticize the new scoring system, you should draw the attention to that.
    I agree with most of what you wrote, but the above sentence is an exception. Looking at the screenshot, Stefano just managed to stay in (or get back into) T1 before the end, probably thanks to buying tickets (similar happened in my bracket). The ticket spammers with probably much worse hands were not far behind, and some of them managed to finish in T1. This is just wrong. If you're not active in the final minutes, and even buy tickets, you're not safe, not even with a superior hand. I can't imagine how mad I would have been if I were Stefano. And there were probably some cases where guys like him lost T1 in the final minutes.
    To be fair - looking at Stefano’s particular case - I was in his bracket and he didn’t really play for the entire last day (until the last hour) and played under-average throughout the 3 days the bracket was open. He’d have been clear at the top if he did.

    BUT if he didn’t (or couldn’t) play for the last hour he’d have been out of the top-10. I agree it’s gone to far.

    lets not forget the actual cause here - the only reason it changed was because of the strangely complicated way they chose to address late joining. No new brackets after a random cutoff point prior to event end would have been simple, and fair to all players. Sure some players would miss-out once or twice, but they’d soon learn.
  • TGPDTGPD Posts: 6,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    baest said:
    TGPD said:
    greddy said:
    You got only 15 points because of 550 point difference.

    Higher difference means less points. 

    Lol.
    I challenge you to make it 1 point
    We're not for lack of tryin' haha
    I think we could lock out Tier 1, no?
    I'm pretty confident.
  • Blue2moroBlue2moro Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't get the reasoning behind the point difference affecting the points from a win, although I do wish the Premier League would adopt it...anything to stop Liverpool walking the league.  :D
  • 0171801718 Posts: 450 ✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    01718 said:
    They (and not guys like Stefano Storato) are drawn into those ticket wars. So if you want to criticize the new scoring system, you should draw the attention to that.
    I agree with most of what you wrote, but the above sentence is an exception. Looking at the screenshot, Stefano just managed to stay in (or get back into) T1 before the end, probably thanks to buying tickets (similar happened in my bracket). The ticket spammers with probably much worse hands were not far behind, and some of them managed to finish in T1. This is just wrong. If you're not active in the final minutes, and even buy tickets, you're not safe, not even with a superior hand. I can't imagine how mad I would have been if I were Stefano. And there were probably some cases where guys like him lost T1 in the final minutes.
    To be fair - looking at Stefano’s particular case - I was in his bracket and he didn’t really play for the entire last day (until the last hour) and played under-average throughout the 3 days the bracket was open. He’d have been clear at the top if he did.

    BUT if he didn’t (or couldn’t) play for the last hour he’d have been out of the top-10. I agree it’s gone to far.

    lets not forget the actual cause here - the only reason it changed was because of the strangely complicated way they chose to address late joining. No new brackets after a random cutoff point prior to event end would have been simple, and fair to all players. Sure some players would miss-out once or twice, but they’d soon learn.
    I agree that it can be stressfull to play as many tickets as possible over three days and I agree that it is not a part of casual gaming, when you have to play during certain hours to be competitive. Then again this was the P1 GTR Finals and if this guy had missed his chance to grab the holy grail of sports car exuberance, the only one to blame would be himself. I don't think it would be a reasonable to expect the game to allow you to advance so much, that you are literally untouchable for an extended period at the end of a final.

    Again, I see that the change in the scoring system is burning more gold than before for tickets, the p2w element in TD has been enhanced once more.
  • malsmals Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    mals said:
    Nothing to add, this system doesnt work.

    Support told me "all is working fine" , what the hell?
  • RuvlaRuvla Posts: 140 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    While I do not like the changes to the scoring system, but they are being worse with 2 other factors:

    1) lack of versatility in hands - when hand points are limited (say 100 or 60 or whatever) there is always some optional hand variation, that has a few variations, but close to each other.

    that leads to 2 consequences:
    - as top hands are almost the same - they can beat each other. So who spends more tickets - wins. Making top tier bigger might be a solution. Or calculate tiers based on hands difference, so people with top hands can always be in T1.
    - as top hand is the same, the one starting first gets some advantage, cause he can build a gap. If top hand cannot beat itself - then guys who come later are stuck.

    2) events end time is fixed for the whole world, but with last hour being extra important that brings different players in unequal conditions. Giving every player ability to choose end-time bracket will help to eliminate this. And will give side benefit that server load will be spread more equally, than nowadays.
  • RWareRWare Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are some really well points being made by @01718 and others, too.

    @David_Fook is correct in his comments about how such a strong hand is subsequently forced into buying tickets because everyone around him was doing so....but still not beating Stefano.

    Sure, this was THE Final. I wasn't really this active during the 918 1st time around or the P1 - so don't know if the 1st-3rd gen brackets were this active. It will be interesting to see if this trend continues or dies off.

    The fact of the matter however, is that unless you have some godlike 5 x maxxed Legend hands in a RQ150 event, you can still take losses if you're smart with placement. That doesn't essentially mean your hand is on par with the guy you just beat. However, this could then spill over into another factor I don't like which is why some tracks are weighted over others in terms of points payout.... I'll stop there.

    In conclusion, I think it's fair to say the points system has little clarity over it, and I think we would all benefit from Hutch explaining how it all works, so we can understand better. @Hutch_Tim this is one for you I reckon, Mr. Stats.
  • SchmidtiSchmidti Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    in the end there will be most likely no cf for me... put three days of "work" in that score. I just don't get how someone with 20 wins difference can have as much points as someone with 45 wins difference. 
  • kaje73kaje73 Posts: 303 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    It is ridiculous - I just played someone 1 place above me, yet 500 pts ahead of me, and got +27 for the win, while they lost 19 - a 46 point swing.
    Their win/loss is +68; mine is +8, pretty sure they feel safe with 10 mins to go in the event (as they should), yet if I felt inclined I could ticket spam and pass them with a much worse record.

    Edit: it was @Destroyer2k11999 - sorry for the loss mate - it was the only one I gave you, just to see what points that kind of a gap would get. Be interesting to see what you would get by beating me now (IGN Kelvin Osborn). 
  • Destroyer2k11999Destroyer2k11999 Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kaje73 said:
    It is ridiculous - I just played someone 1 place above me, yet 500 pts ahead of me, and got +27 for the win, while they lost 19 - a 46 point swing.
    Their win/loss is +68; mine is +8, pretty sure they feel safe with 10 mins to go in the event (as they should), yet if I felt inclined I could ticket spam and pass them with a much worse record.

    Edit: it was @Destroyer2k11999 - sorry for the loss mate - it was the only one I gave you, just to see what points that kind of a gap would get. Be interesting to see what you would get by beating me now (IGN Kelvin Osborn). 
    If I saw this earlier I would've tried...no biggie but it's amazing how quickly you could close the gap with that swing of you chose!
  • RWareRWare Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kaje73 said:
    It is ridiculous - I just played someone 1 place above me, yet 500 pts ahead of me, and got +27 for the win, while they lost 19 - a 46 point swing.


    @Hutch_Tim can you please confirm if this is by design? A 46 point swing is unbeleivable - I can see why I lost a 550pt gap in 20 minutes whilst actively playing!
  • malsmals Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    I hope hutch is thinking in a new best system
  • lemmings99olemmings99o Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mals said:
    I hope hutch is thinking in a new best system
    Probably not, this is the best system for them now as if you want a prize car you have to ticket spam at the end no matter how good your hand is. 
    The chances of getting one without spending just took a massive nosedive.
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 940 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From igf, both T1 with negative scores :)
    That is just sad
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