Matchmaking Gotten Harder?

2

Comments

  • MettitiMettiti Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TimBut said:
    I think that there should that there should be legendary car use restriction, like only one is allowed to use. Then we can talk about garage diversity, proper preparations, etc. Otherwise you can't do **** against people with 3-4 legendaries as long as there are mostly no competetitors in A class to for example Ford gt90 in the 90s events. 
    I believe there's a general consensus from Hutch that the more you buy packs and things the easier it should be for you, limiting cars and stuff would go against that.
  • TNThomasTNThomas Posts: 610 ✭✭✭✭
    I’m just repeating myself but the trophies should have been reset with the new system. Maybe they could even be reset twice a year or something now. 
    I have never thought about this, but that could be a good solution! It would be nice if Hutch would share their opinion on this ‘problem’.
  • baestbaest Posts: 551 ✭✭✭✭
    I’m just repeating myself but the trophies should have been reset with the new system. Maybe they could even be reset twice a year or something now. 
    I saw this coming and asked what their plan was to fix it at the time.  I suggested either a full reset or a grading of garages at reset point.. no cigar though eh
  • LittleEnosBurdetteLittleEnosBurdette Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭✭✭
    baest said:
    I’m just repeating myself but the trophies should have been reset with the new system. Maybe they could even be reset twice a year or something now. 
    I saw this coming and asked what their plan was to fix it at the time.  I suggested either a full reset or a grading of garages at reset point.. no cigar though eh
    Yup, a total fail not resetting them and the reasons given for not doing it were pretty lame in all honesty. 
  • Topdriver44089Topdriver44089 Posts: 99 ✭✭✭
    Im at 11k trophies and im only competitive in rq restricted events (to reach tier 2).
    I really think There should be some kind of incentive to get high trophy count.

  • Blue2moroBlue2moro Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have around 1,900 trophies and have gone from comfortable T2 finishes in most events (with an odd T1 here and there), to struggling to break out of the last tier. Last week I won a couple events, this week I'm really really struggling. Even in RQ limited events which I'm usually fine on with a strong C, UC & R garage.

    BOTH current BMW events are smurfing events for me. Even my strongest hands can't break out of the bottom tier.
  • MettitiMettiti Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    S3XY said:
    baest said:
    I’m just repeating myself but the trophies should have been reset with the new system. Maybe they could even be reset twice a year or something now. 
    I saw this coming and asked what their plan was to fix it at the time.  I suggested either a full reset or a grading of garages at reset point.. no cigar though eh
    Reminded me of those "Rate my garage 1 to 10" ig forum posts
    those days were 🔥🔥🔥
  • ljhcjpljhcjp Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    This is really frustrating as a 10k Trophy player, i have no shot at tier 1 or 2 in any event that's not like RQ110 or under and no point waiting for another bracket because they fill too slowly. Can someone explain the reasoning as to why it's limited like this?
    When I brought this up in the BMW event, you shot me down saying I should expect to lose with a full hand of epics (not upgraded granted)  What’s changed?
  • ManUtdTobbeManUtdTobbe Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ljhcjp said:
    This is really frustrating as a 10k Trophy player, i have no shot at tier 1 or 2 in any event that's not like RQ110 or under and no point waiting for another bracket because they fill too slowly. Can someone explain the reasoning as to why it's limited like this?
    When I brought this up in the BMW event, you shot me down saying I should expect to lose with a full hand of epics (not upgraded granted)  What’s changed?
    You must be confusing me with someone else because i didn't write anything like that in the BMW event. Pretty sure i haven't written anything even remotely close to what ur saying in any event thread.
  • ljhcjpljhcjp Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    ljhcjp said:
    This is really frustrating as a 10k Trophy player, i have no shot at tier 1 or 2 in any event that's not like RQ110 or under and no point waiting for another bracket because they fill too slowly. Can someone explain the reasoning as to why it's limited like this?
    When I brought this up in the BMW event, you shot me down saying I should expect to lose with a full hand of epics (not upgraded granted)  What’s changed?
    You must be confusing me with someone else because i didn't write anything like that in the BMW event. Pretty sure i haven't written anything even remotely close to what ur saying in any event thread.
    😫😫😫😫 my bad! It was someone completely different. Apologies!

    id feel worse but you’re a united fan 😂 

  • ManUtdTobbeManUtdTobbe Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's all good :)
  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 665 admin
    Matchmaking has been discussed a lot, but some people weren't here for that, so let's go again!

    First, in case anyone isn't clear, how matchmaking currently works in Top Drives:
    - Players are grouped by Level (RQ) into different versions of each event, and are also grouped by trophy bands
    - The number of groupings and the trophy thresholds vary from event to event.
    - Higher Level versions of events (i.e. for players with higher RQ) generally have tighter requirements (e.g. '5x Japanese and 4x Honda' instead of '5x Japanese and 2x Honda') and better prizes than lower Level ones (e.g. CF for T1 instead of Ceramic)
    - Tri-Series Finals are open to all, so nobody has an advantage for prize cars by having fewer trophies

    Now let's see if we can start from points we can agree on:

    (1) Losing all the time isn't fun and is likely to make you stop playing
    This is true for players of any trophy amount and any amount of experience. 

    (2) Highly experienced players should generally win the top prizes
    This is why prize car finals events are fully open.

    These two things together are the reason matchmaking currently works as it does. Here are some scenarios to see that in action.

    A) What if there was no matchmaking?
    With no matchmaking, newer and less experienced players would lose pretty much all the time to existing players. As per (1) they would then be extremely likely to stop playing. When those players drop off, you're only left with experienced players. Everyone got a taste of what that's like in the 5x Mitsubishi final, which unfortunately was too tight a requirement for the less experienced players; with those players out of the picture competition gets extremely tough. The next weakest players then get bored and drop out, making it even harder for the rest... this would just continue to get worse over time.

    B) What if there was fixed matchmaking, e.g. 0-2499 trophies, 2500-4999 trophies, and 5000+?
    This solves some of the problem with new players not getting annihilated, but reaching 5,001 trophies now becomes a "bracket of death" with all the late-game players against you, and none of the early-game players there to pad things out. We end up with effectively the same situation.

    C) Variable matchmaking (as we have now)
    More players stick around more of the time; experienced players also get the benefit of that when it comes to the big prize car Finals, as they get more of the less-experienced players to play against (as they haven't been driven off by losing all the time in regular events).

    All that said, the hardest part to balance out is the top of the tree: if you're a top 5% player, you'll likely struggle against the top 0.5% players, but when we shard to just the top 4% of players (to save you from them), those top 4% then have an incredibly competitive bracket that would also fill much more slowly. So we currently just try to manage it by varying the thresholds across different events.

    Other games do things a bit differently. For example, some have exponential upgrade costs (the Top Drives equivalent would be you could upgrade a Legendary by fusing in 1 Epic, and then 2, then 4, then 8, and so on). Those games can then easily give higher drop rates as players cross trophy thresholds, because upgrade requirements are virtually limitless. Top Drives is a bit too finite for that - you can fully upgrade a car (even a Legendary one, eventually), and then it's done. We think this model works better for Top Drives because it's much more about having a breadth of good units than a few that get incrementally better forever.

    Other games have defined milestones at certain trophy thresholds (like unlocking new environments or units), and significantly faster trophy turnover (e.g. every match you go up or down in trophies). These games have to regularly do a soft reset (e.g. everyone over 8k resets to 4k, players at 4k-8k reset to 2k and so on) to avoid trophy inflation. In Top Drives, trophies change less often, so we can largely keep up with the small amount of inflation just by adjusting the thresholds we use for events.

    Unlike those other games, I think Top Drives does 'work' without trophy soft-resets or enhanced rewards for higher trophy thresholds. But it is true that it would be more motivating to win more events if gaining trophies also somehow benefitted you, so that does make it an interesting idea.
  • baestbaest Posts: 551 ✭✭✭✭
    @Hutch_Tim what was the reasoning for no trophy reset when Hutch overhauled the trophy system?

    That would have very quickly sorted the wheat from the chaff & would have provided no benefits to those that had smurfed to 0 trophies prior to that specific update?

    What happens when the greater player population reaches 150RQ? It's very likely you're going to keep coming across this same issue and the voices will get louder.
  • MettitiMettiti Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Hutch_Tim, so that's how MM works...so ..make it better please
  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 665 admin
    baest said:
    @Hutch_Tim what was the reasoning for no trophy reset when Hutch overhauled the trophy system?
    I last talked about the no-reset decision in this post:

    - The fact we didn't reset all trophies meant that smurfers got to keep their advantage for a while.
    - If we had reset trophies, it would have taken significantly longer for all the players with the best garages to rise out of the lower trophy brackets, creating a really bad time for the majority of the player base who would be facing them.
    - On balance, we preferred the former to the latter.

    baest said:

    What  happens when the greater player population reaches 150RQ? It's very likely you're going to keep coming across this same issue and the voices will get louder.
    I'm not sure exactly which aspect you foresee getting worse as the player base matures, but yes, we'll certainly continue to monitor how things are going. Threads like this are quite useful to see what the experience is feeling like. I've got over 15k trophies myself so I can at least see the European server experience directly - useful, as there's only so far squinting at data can get you on this kind of thing.
  • TimButTimBut Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I usually join new daily everyday at 24:00 and always had usual room with familiar names, and I was able to get Ceramic after smurfing. But since I reached 6k I'm seeing now another names and much stronger hands in top 20.  Mostly 5 upgraded prize legendaries and ofc there are no more ceramics for me :) 
  • MettitiMettiti Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TimBut said:
    I usually join new daily noeveryday at 24:00 and always had usual room with familiar names, and I was able to get Ceramic after smurfing. But since I reached 6k I'm seeing now another names and much stronger hands in top 20.  Mostly 5 upgraded prize legendaries and ofc there are no more ceramics for me :) 
    Welcome to the struggle bud lol
  • mauro07mauro07 Posts: 2,942 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Hutch_Tim
    what do you mean with experienced? i think you talk Money $$$$ players!!!  you kill a lot of f2p players, i play since november 2017 and win only the last porsche prize event (useless), others events are quiet impossible if you reset your trophy system, all players can begin from zero andyou have seen a little advantage for big garages but only for few weeks... i have 23k trophy and never win a daily, and i won sometimes some formula fun or restricted event!!
    and do you do something for this trophy system? some rewards? some leaderboards?
  • OzzmanOzzman Posts: 1,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    BoxtaS said:

    Trophy count is a very poor way of grouping people, as it punishes hard work and effort in favour of luck and spend. I don’t have the answer, but I strongly feel an alternative should be sought. 
    It sounds like you're suggesting some measure of garage quality should be used for matchmaking instead. I probably should have included a note on that, as it always comes up! It's intuitively appealing, but long-term I don't think it would work as well.

    There are two main versions:

    Matchmaking based on some measure of overall garage quality
    This would be very odd in Top Drives. Imagine if you got lucky and pulled two Bugattis - that feels good, until you realise you're now up against people with 2 more legendaries (on average) in every event, and in most events you don't get to use your Bugattis. So now you feel like you might be better off if you sold those Bugattis. That might even be true. That doesn't sound fun! I think we all want a game where getting and keeping and investing strategically in good cars gives you an advantage.

    Matchmaking based on some measure of garage quality for each event
    Say there's a 5x Ford event, then we would matchmake based on the quality of your Ford garage. So who will do well in this event? Well, probably the people who buy Ford Premiums or Carbon Fibers, as those are the people improving their Ford Garage during the event. If you're worried about spending having too much of an advantage, I think this would push things even more in that direction.

    Trophy matchmaking isn't perfect, but it does seem preferable to the alternatives.
    I have to agree with you as well. Seems like there's no right way of doing this, just "less wrong". And that's probably something like the current system. Although I still don't feel that I'm as "good" at this game as my trophy count suggests.
  • MSteeLMSteeL Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just give us some benefits for gathering trophies and all is forgiven. Lol
  • BoxtaSBoxtaS Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MSteeL said:
    Just give us some benefits for gathering trophies and all is forgiven. Lol
    Yeah like a 1 off payment of 1 gold per trophy 👍
  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Blue2moro said:
    How about a seperate monthly global leaderboard that counts trophies in that period.  At the end of the month reward packs go out in tiers. Top 5% or 10% get a CF, up to 20-25% get a couple Ceramics, up to ~50% get a single Ceramic, everyone else gets an Aluminium pack or 2.
    You might be on to something here. The rewards would have to be enticing enough to be an alternative to smurfing all day every day, however. 
  • MettitiMettiti Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    BoxtaS said:

    Trophy count is a very poor way of grouping people, as it punishes hard work and effort in favour of luck and spend. I don’t have the answer, but I strongly feel an alternative should be sought. 
    It sounds like you're suggesting some measure of garage quality should be used for matchmaking instead. I probably should have included a note on that, as it always comes up! It's intuitively appealing, but long-term I don't think it would work as well.

    There are two main versions:

    Matchmaking based on some measure of overall garage quality
    This would be very odd in Top Drives. Imagine if you got lucky and pulled two Bugattis - that feels good, until you realise you're now up against people with 2 more legendaries (on average) in every event, and in most events you don't get to use your Bugattis. So now you feel like you might be better off if you sold those Bugattis. That might even be true. That doesn't sound fun! I think we all want a game where getting and keeping and investing strategically in good cars gives you an advantage.

    Matchmaking based on some measure of garage quality for each event
    Say there's a 5x Ford event, then we would matchmake based on the quality of your Ford garage. So who will do well in this event? Well, probably the people who buy Ford Premiums or Carbon Fibers, as those are the people improving their Ford Garage during the event. If you're worried about spending having too much of an advantage, I think this would push things even more in that direction.

    Trophy matchmaking isn't perfect, but it does seem preferable to the alternatives.
     
    Thats not true , you're suggesting that a garage quality rating would be based on quantity and not quality.
    Youre also suggesting that people that buy premium ford packs for example, who will end up getting SPs and rares which might not be very competitive, will get a higher rating anyway and will be matched up badly .
    Another exploit that comes to my mind is peiplp with really good fords will buy bad psvks to dilute their garages and get better MM.
    This isn't really hard to get around though, in a 5×Ford requirement event, easiest thing you could do is give a rating based on each garage's best 5 compatible cars with that event (having  an extra dozen ford fiestas for example will become irrelevant (not throwing shade at ford fiestas))

  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 665 admin
    Mettiti said:
    Thats not true , you're suggesting that a garage quality rating would be based on quantity and not quality.
    Youre also suggesting that people that buy premium ford packs for example, who will end up getting SPs and rares which might not be very competitive, will get a higher rating anyway and will be matched up badly .
    Another exploit that comes to my mind is peiplp with really good fords will buy bad psvks to dilute their garages and get better MM.
    This isn't really hard to get around though, in a 5×Ford requirement event, easiest thing you could do is give a rating based on each garage's best 5 compatible cars with that event (having  an extra dozen ford fiestas for example will become irrelevant (not throwing shade at ford fiestas))

    So you're talking about the 2nd version where matchmaking is based on your best cars for the event. Doing it based on your 5 most suitable cars is exactly what I had in mind, so I think my argument stands.

    Let's get really specific: imagine there's a 5x Ford event that's all flat, dry and on-road, and your best Fords are 5 RWD Performance-tire Fords that are Super-rare. In general you're matched with people in a similar situation. You can make T1, then gradually people around you start bringing out Ultra-rare Fords that they got from buying packs. So you buy a Ford Carbon Fiber. Say you get lucky and pull an RS200, now you're back in the running. But next time there's a Ford event you'll be up against people with 4x C and 1x B, so it only benefitted you for this event. Now let's say you were unlucky and got something like a Taurus SHO - it doesn't help you this event, and if in the future there's then a Ford event where the Taurus SHO was useful (it could happen!), you'd be matchmade with other people that already had it anyway, so it doesn't benefit you for the future either.

    Or suppose you win a Legendary prize car with great effort. Later on an event comes up where you can use it, but because of this garage-based matchmaking, you're up against all the other people that have it already.

    That just doesn't seem appealing to me. Is there some different way you see it working?
  • MettitiMettiti Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    Mettiti said:
    Thats not true , you're suggesting that a garage quality rating would be based on quantity and not quality.
    Youre also suggesting that people that buy premium ford packs for example, who will end up getting SPs and rares which might not be very competitive, will get a higher rating anyway and will be matched up badly .
    Another exploit that comes to my mind is peiplp with really good fords will buy bad psvks to dilute their garages and get better MM.
    This isn't really hard to get around though, in a 5×Ford requirement event, easiest thing you could do is give a rating based on each garage's best 5 compatible cars with that event (having  an extra dozen ford fiestas for example will become irrelevant (not throwing shade at ford fiestas))

    So you're talking about the 2nd version where matchmaking is based on your best cars for the event. Doing it based on your 5 most suitable cars is exactly what I had in mind, so I think my argument stands.

    Let's get really specific: imagine there's a 5x Ford event that's all flat, dry and on-road, and your best Fords are 5 RWD Performance-tire Fords that are Super-rare. In general you're matched with people in a similar situation. You can make T1, then gradually people around you start bringing out Ultra-rare Fords that they got from buying packs. So you buy a Ford Carbon Fiber. Say you get lucky and pull an RS200, now you're back in the running. But next time there's a Ford event you'll be up against people with 4x C and 1x B, so it only benefitted you for this event. Now let's say you were unlucky and got something like a Taurus SHO - it doesn't help you this event, and if in the future there's then a Ford event where the Taurus SHO was useful (it could happen!), you'd be matchmade with other people that already had it anyway, so it doesn't benefit you for the future either.

    Or suppose you win a Legendary prize car with great effort. Later on an event comes up where you can use it, but because of this garage-based matchmaking, you're up against all the other people that have it already.

    That just doesn't seem appealing to me. Is there some different way you see it working?
    Correct, but if anything this would be better 
    1- it's a more equal at the start of the event
    2- being MM against people with similar cars (idk the stats on people having THE EXACT SAME cars but I'm sure it's significant at upper echelons) doesn't take into consideration different tunes
    3- you're saying that players buying packs is the differentiator, but players buy packs ANYWAY so I don't see the issue, luck is a big part of this game
    4- the thing with the Taurus, or any particular car, an RQ capped chevy event for example, would be an elcamino galore, and it is in most cases.. if anything it's more of an incentive to restrict dupes so that there's more variation on a 5 car hand

    I do think you got the gist of my idea bang on though which is good.
    I don't know what other people think of this and what could be some possible exploits with this or downsides
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