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Physics simulation - fixes with PL7.5

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  • jigajiga ✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 388 ✭✭✭✭
    TD42792 said:
    RobGripes said:
    StealthFT said:
    RobGripes said:
    I think it is the right time to bring this topic back to life. PL8.0 has been released, Hutch are working on clubs which will be released soon. IMO these two issues should be high up on the priority list for Hutch to tackle next.

    This 'feature' shouldn't be in the game, it doesn't make sense and it was only put in to overcome a separate bug in the game. It will ruin the game in future, as more and more people realise that 969 tune is the only way to go for the majority of cars, especially anything that isn't running on dry tarmac. We will be facing draw stalemates repeatedly, and the game will be boring.

    I think all players should be allowed to re-tune their cars, once, when this happens.
    Changing tunes directly (as opposed to asking staff to do it for us) should definitely be allowed if this were to be fixed, but it would still be a nightmare for those with huge garages, and who knows what new weird "feature" it may introduce..which is why I prefer keeping it as is and communicate it better, e.g., say "drivetrain" upgrade instead of "engine".

    The issue i am wary of, is that 969 tune is inherently superior to others 
    The big issue in my mind is that upgraded lower class cars that get to similar stats as higher class (but non upgraded) cars have a big advantage, eg an upgraded UR getting to same 0-60 and handling stats as a 333 legendary has a huge advantage.
    This is a bit game braking and not justifiable.
    I think this shows up most clearly on loose surfaces such as in the Sunday daily where I have repeatedly noticed such as a stock rq6 with vastly superior stats getting beaten by an rq3 with basic 1.3 upgrades.  I am all but certain the engine upgrade traction bonus is having an exaggerrated effect on loose surface. 

    It bothers me that while the traction bonus gives improved performance this is not reflected in a car's stats which remain exactly the same as they would without the traction bonus.  It means that you can compare the stats of cars tuned the same as if the stats were reliable but you cannot treat the stats as reliable when comparing differently tuned cars or when comparing stock cars to upgraded.
  • Destroyer2k11999Destroyer2k11999 ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @RobGripes can you screenshot what your question was at 20:38?
  • RobGripesRobGripes ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3
    I'll post the whole lot, so it's easier to read in one go.


    Post edited by Gsearch on
  • RobGripesRobGripes ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please excuse the poor typing skills. Can't seem to press the correct buttons all the time and i CBB to proof read a support msg in-game
  • RobGripesRobGripes ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's not like I haven't been patient enough, more like I have been too patient.

    398 days this car has been in my collection, probably maxed it very early. It was never a great tune, the 699. But i waited to see if the new environments would allow lightness to flourish. They did not.

    I then waited to see if the change of having weight play a more crucial factor in determining results would make the car come good. It did not.

    Then I found out it was because of the hidden engine upgrade code (December), so I waited to see if PL8 would remove that code.

    Patience did not help me.


  • mauro07mauro07 ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
    you are not a whale 🤔🙈🙉🙊
  • O__VERO__VER ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If there is a good reason for tune change for example by accident, or less black and white, a car is genuinely bad because of a change we made, we may at our discretion apply a change. We may refuse a change if a player continually requests a switch or if there's no grounds for one. We won't make a blanket policy as this clearly would be open to abuse.
    Did you fully read @RobGripes posts? Your answer doesn't even remotely address his concerns. This is less about a blanket policy and more about the inconsistency that's already happening.

    He wants a car changed because of physics changes that Hutch made. Reasons out of his control.

    Other people including myself have had this done by support several times. So why is support refusing him? This doesn't make any sense!
  • LittleEnosBurdetteLittleEnosBurdette ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TD01055 said:
    O__VER said:
    If there is a good reason for tune change for example by accident, or less black and white, a car is genuinely bad because of a change we made, we may at our discretion apply a change. We may refuse a change if a player continually requests a switch or if there's no grounds for one. We won't make a blanket policy as this clearly would be open to abuse.
    Did you fully read @RobGripes posts? Your answer doesn't even remotely address his concerns. This is less about a blanket policy and more about the inconsistency that's already happening.

    He wants a car changed because of physics changes that Hutch made. Reasons out of his control.

    Other people including myself have had this done by support several times. So why is support refusing him? This doesn't make any sense!
    It seems you need to educate your support staff about the physics changes. I don’t think it’s that hard, any pre-American dream car should be able to switch from 699 to 969, and any off-roader or 4wd should be able to change from 699 to 969. The rest should be refused imho. If I make my widebody 969 instead of 699, or my Elise 996, that’s on me.

    Every patch has effects on physics though, even the last one that wasn’t meant to have any changes still has altered results, your 969 widebody may be dominant just now but after the next update it could change to 699?
    I wouldn’t demand Hutch change any tunes for me (not saying Rob did btw) but if it’s down to work they have done I would certainly contact support to ask for tune switches on ultras and above, and they have kindly done so in the past. 
  • mauro07mauro07 ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not discrection.. we need rules.. or all or noone!! Because i can think you can change tune only for simpathy
  • EndlessWavesEndlessWaves ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 570 ✭✭✭
    jiga said:
    It bothers me that while the traction bonus gives improved performance this is not reflected in a car's stats which remain exactly the same as they would without the traction bonus.  It means that you can compare the stats of cars tuned the same as if the stats were reliable but you cannot treat the stats as reliable when comparing differently tuned cars or when comparing stock cars to upgraded.
    You can't anyway, tuning makes so small a difference to the stats that except for some very slow cars the majority of the difference is hidden by the values being limited to one decimal place.
  • mauro07mauro07 ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bah.. discrection is not a good deal... because if they have empathy with you, they change it and maybe to me, not!! I don't see patch note about changes in engine... so or Hutch is more clean with customer or we need more possibility to try and change our tune!! Maybe limited in time... we have a week to change this tune.. maybe with some free coin for change tune or something similar!!!
  • EndlessWavesEndlessWaves ✭✭✭ Member Posts: 570 ✭✭✭
    O__VER said:
    If there is a good reason for tune change for example by accident, or less black and white, a car is genuinely bad because of a change we made, we may at our discretion apply a change. We may refuse a change if a player continually requests a switch or if there's no grounds for one. We won't make a blanket policy as this clearly would be open to abuse.
    Did you fully read @RobGripes posts? Your answer doesn't even remotely address his concerns. This is less about a blanket policy and more about the inconsistency that's already happening.

    He wants a car changed because of physics changes that Hutch made. Reasons out of his control.
    Actually the example he gave was a 699 infiniti that he tuned wrong because he didn't fully understand the game's mechanics, rather than because of a change in them.
  • RobGripesRobGripes ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mauro07 said:
    Not discrection.. we need rules.. or all or noone!! Because i can think you can change tune only for simpathy
    They can’t imo make that rule though, if they said yes, anyone that asks can get a tune change it would be abused totally. If they say nobody can have one, you max for example a P1 or 918 969, the physics change in a patch making 699 better and you’re stuck with it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Has to be done on a case by case basis. 

    I fully agree. 

    I never asked for a hard rule to be applied. I asked for a consistent approach.

    To clarify what i mean, i think only cars maxed before the announcement in December of the code that gives engine upgrading a boost to handling was made by Tim should be changed upon request.

    The change should only apply to cars that are reasonably expected to be used in non-dry tarmac conditions (STD tyres, 4wd PERF, all-surface and off-road tyres)

    Fwd/rwd perf tyres cars shouldn't ever be allowed to change tunes.

    However, support has allowed some players to change willy-nilly, and others who have cars affected by their changes to the game mechanics aren't allowed a change. 

    This is the inconsistent approach I feel needs to stop.

  • UltimateUltimate ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mauro07 said:
    Not discrection.. we need rules.. or all or noone!! Because i can think you can change tune only for simpathy
    They can’t imo make that rule though, if they said yes, anyone that asks can get a tune change it would be abused totally. If they say nobody can have one, you max for example a P1 or 918 969, the physics change in a patch making 699 better and you’re stuck with it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Has to be done on a case by case basis. 
    Maybe there could be a amnesty period where everyone who wants a change to a car tune can do so to cap of, throwing a figure out there, 10 cars. Thereafter the policy I’d imagine would be set to a blanket “No”, unless Hutch decides on another amnesty period.
  • grandvachegrandvache ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4
    mauro07 said:
    Not discrection.. we need rules.. or all or noone!! Because i can think you can change tune only for simpathy
    They can’t imo make that rule though, if they said yes, anyone that asks can get a tune change it would be abused totally. If they say nobody can have one, you max for example a P1 or 918 969, the physics change in a patch making 699 better and you’re stuck with it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Has to be done on a case by case basis. 
    This also encourages people to ask nicely and not be thundering (rude people).
    Post edited by Gsearch on
  • RobGripesRobGripes ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭✭✭



    @ZotZe @TimBut ; @Olli8888 ; how exactly does that post constitute abuse? 

    I really wish forumers would not abuse the flagging system but this is the second time I have witnessed users doing so frivolously. 

  • RobGripesRobGripes ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5
    mauro07 said:
    Not discrection.. we need rules.. or all or noone!! Because i can think you can change tune only for simpathy
    They can’t imo make that rule though, if they said yes, anyone that asks can get a tune change it would be abused totally. If they say nobody can have one, you max for example a P1 or 918 969, the physics change in a patch making 699 better and you’re stuck with it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Has to be done on a case by case basis. 
    This also encourages people to ask nicely and not be thundering arseheads.

    If you mean me, please find where I was a thundering (rude person). I asked politely, and I explained a reason as to why I was asking. 
    Post edited by Gsearch on
  • grandvachegrandvache ✭✭✭✭✭ Member Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    mauro07 said:
    Not discrection.. we need rules.. or all or noone!! Because i can think you can change tune only for simpathy
    They can’t imo make that rule though, if they said yes, anyone that asks can get a tune change it would be abused totally. If they say nobody can have one, you max for example a P1 or 918 969, the physics change in a patch making 699 better and you’re stuck with it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Has to be done on a case by case basis. 
    This also encourages people to ask nicely and not be thundering arseheads.

    If you mean me, please find where I was a thundering arsehead. I asked politely, and I explained a reason as to why I was asking. 
    I don't, I'm not calling out anyone specific.
  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim admin Administrator, Hutch Staff Posts: 614 admin
    Just to add a little more context, the "upgraded engine upgrades traction" feature was not added, it has been there since launch. Confusing results where a maxed but 'slower' car would beat a non-maxed 'faster' one on an off-road drag race have been reported since launch for this reason.

    What actually happened is we fixed how optimally the AI drives (twice, getting better each time, although still not perfect), and we fixed hills such that heavier cars are actually slower up them. With those two factors out the way, the engine-upgrades-traction feature was then much more obvious as the next biggest cause of surprising result. If you look back at some of the results from the earliest days in this thread, you can see how hard it would have been to spot engine-upgrades-traction, given what the AI was sometimes doing.

    To return to the original point, it's true that once Clubs are released that may be a good time to return to physics changes. My guess is after clubs is released we will most likely find a few aspects about it that need to change - you just can't anticipate how things will actually play out in a system that complex - so that will likely have to come first.

    In terms of engine-upgrades-traction, although we haven't tried this out yet, my guess is that if we just removed it we would then see a lot more of those "heavier car wins" results when off-road, and of course a lot of ties off-road when both cars are at the traction limit, as engine upgrades no longer break that tie. The latter we may just have to live with, but the former is something we should probably solve at the same time, otherwise we're just moving problems around.
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