Event Reward Structure

24

Comments

  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Posts: 925 admin
    edited May 2019
    Keating said:
    Ozzman said:
    I'm not sure it would be an issue. But if we are worried about that, then maybe do this only in regular ceramic events. The ones in the top 10 there not necessarily have high-end garages.
    The version of this without new feature development is the idea discussed in the past; significantly increasing prize tier rewards and lowering the value of prize boards, to help promote maximising leaderboard performance in events.
    That’s won’t benefit any of us and only increases the divide between F2P and pay to play. We need prize boards for cash, gold, and lower tier cars to keep and fuse. Increasing end of race rewards only benefits the top finishers (pay to play) while leaving out those who are F2P. Please don’t do this.
    In this example, you would still get prize board rewards, and you would still get all the lower tier cars to keep and fuse. In fact, we could use the opportunity to add more Uncommons and Commons to the prize board at the same time.

    I don't quite follow your point. "That won't benefit any of us" feels so extreme. There's no reason the benefit wouldn't be felt by all players. Especially if it means more events overall, even with some balancing to prevent too much economic inflation, F2P players would be better off. Increasing end of event prizes would apply to all tiers, that includes Tiers 3 and 4, and a rewards boost would include the early stages of Challenges.
  • OzzmanOzzman Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    I'm not sure it would be an issue. But if we are worried about that, then maybe do this only in regular ceramic events. The ones in the top 10 there not necessarily have high-end garages.
    The version of this without new feature development is the idea discussed in the past; significantly increasing prize tier rewards and lowering the value of prize boards, to help promote maximising leaderboard performance in events.
    Well that's not exactly the same thing. What you're saying would result that players would still try to smurf in the beginning in order to clear as many prize boards as they can. Then try to reach at least tier 2 for the increased event prizes. Nothing would really change. But if they could clear the board just as effectively, while fighting in the top 10, probably getting wins by just 50 pts, or even less, that would mean there's no need to smurf anymore.
  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    Ozzman said:
    I'm not sure it would be an issue. But if we are worried about that, then maybe do this only in regular ceramic events. The ones in the top 10 there not necessarily have high-end garages.
    The version of this without new feature development is the idea discussed in the past; significantly increasing prize tier rewards and lowering the value of prize boards, to help promote maximising leaderboard performance in events.
    Well that's not exactly the same thing. What you're saying would result that players would still try to smurf in the beginning in order to clear as many prize boards as they can. Then try to reach at least tier 2 for the increased event prizes. Nothing would really change. But if they could clear the board just as effectively, while fighting in the top 10, probably getting wins by just 50 pts, or even less, that would mean there's no need to smurf anymore.
    Precisely. this has been brought up numerous times. If fighting tooth and nail for top 10 would yield higher rewards than a massacre at the bottom of the bracket then we wouldn't have to smurf
  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Posts: 925 admin
    edited May 2019
    Ozzman said:
    Ozzman said:
    I'm not sure it would be an issue. But if we are worried about that, then maybe do this only in regular ceramic events. The ones in the top 10 there not necessarily have high-end garages.
    The version of this without new feature development is the idea discussed in the past; significantly increasing prize tier rewards and lowering the value of prize boards, to help promote maximising leaderboard performance in events.
    Well that's not exactly the same thing. What you're saying would result that players would still try to smurf in the beginning in order to clear as many prize boards as they can. Then try to reach at least tier 2 for the increased event prizes. Nothing would really change. But if they could clear the board just as effectively, while fighting in the top 10, probably getting wins by just 50 pts, or even less, that would mean there's no need to smurf anymore.
    Sure, but if we are seeking quick implementation, we need to look for solutions that aren't new feature requests. There may be changes we can do to number of points earned from wins/losses, but if the objection is 'that's still doing the thing you don't like', I'm actually far more content with farming and then climbing than exclusively farming. Your solution may be more effective in eliminating farming, but I'd be happy with a partial solution that encourages you try and win straight up (even if it's not a perfect solution).
  • TimButTimBut Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From one point I would love to get rid of points and always have 3 stars.  But from the other point - it will destroy a big part of strategy. Sometimes im going to get 3 stars, sometimes I think more about my defense and place cars for less stars but better defence. 

    But if I could always 3 star fighting in top tier - I think I would be much happier to drop this **** smurf thing, because I hate smurfing. 
  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Posts: 925 admin
    TimBut said:
    From one point I would love to get rid of points and always have 3 stars.  But from the other point - it will destroy a big part of strategy. Sometimes im going to get 3 stars, sometimes I think more about my defense and place cars for less stars but better defence. 

    But if I could always 3 star fighting in top tier - I think I would be much happier to drop this **** smurf thing, because I hate smurfing. 
    This is a really good point. That's really valuable. We'd want to keep this.
  • mikesmikes Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TimBut said:
    From one point I would love to get rid of points and always have 3 stars.  But from the other point - it will destroy a big part of strategy. Sometimes im going to get 3 stars, sometimes I think more about my defense and place cars for less stars but better defence. 

    But if I could always 3 star fighting in top tier - I think I would be much happier to drop this **** smurf thing, because I hate smurfing. 
    This is a really good point. That's really valuable. We'd want to keep this.
    Fully agree. Maybe any win gets three prize board flips, while two or three stars gets bonus cash? ($500 or $1000 a star?)
  • KarhgathKarhgath Posts: 180 ✭✭✭
    Keating said:
    Ozzman said:
    I'm not sure it would be an issue. But if we are worried about that, then maybe do this only in regular ceramic events. The ones in the top 10 there not necessarily have high-end garages.
    The version of this without new feature development is the idea discussed in the past; significantly increasing prize tier rewards and lowering the value of prize boards, to help promote maximising leaderboard performance in events.
    That’s won’t benefit any of us and only increases the divide between F2P and pay to play. We need prize boards for cash, gold, and lower tier cars to keep and fuse. Increasing end of race rewards only benefits the top finishers (pay to play) while leaving out those who are F2P. Please don’t do this.
    In this example, you would still get prize board rewards, and you would still get all the lower tier cars to keep and fuse. In fact, we could use the opportunity to add more Uncommons and Commons to the prize board at the same time.

    I don't quite follow your point. "That won't benefit any of us" feels so extreme. There's no reason the benefit wouldn't be felt by all players. Especially if it means more events overall, even with some balancing to prevent too much economic inflation, F2P players would be better off. Increasing end of event prizes would apply to all tiers, that includes Tiers 3 and 4, and a rewards boost would include the early stages of Challenges.
    There is a catch 22 there, and it is not about overall income, it's about quick, predictable income.

    Take me for example - I have a large garage, RQ150, bought my fair share of special pack offers, but I am competitive in about maybe 25-40% of events - for the rest, I have no hand at all, can barely finish better than last tier. Most of the time, it's because my hand is nowhere near upgraded. Very restrictive events often have more or less the same cars.

    I hardly see a balance where increased tier reward but reduced board will help those in my situation. In those, drawing cards during the event gives more reward - it's not even dedicated farming: you lose a bunch, you win a few and zig zag there. If you can get quick upgrades, you can maybe climb another Tier.

    Unless the last 2 tiers bring much, much higher reward, reducing the board will leave us dry. We won't even have a chance to climb and switch to competitive mode on 2-3 days event - you won't be able to upgrade anymore. Of course, when I can compete I compete and it's nice to get better reward, but I also do need constant board rewards too to progress/fuse.

    Also, events are 2-3 days long on average - this is again, same issue with club - delayed rewards. Boards are instant reward, you can plan for them, you can expect them - need to upgrade? Lose a couple of hands in a non-competitive (e.g. daily) event to then get to win a couple of 3-star hands: done. Then you can climb the board more on events you care about.

    If you are competitive in all events, and have no daily to get board draw, then you are stuck with your hand and can't upgrade, which is the issue today with clubs. People are out of money and food, and can't compete, so they farm more in normal competitive events.

    So I've been raking my brain to help you guys with ideas to stop farming the board in a organized manner and help keep average income for most players, but it's hard.

    With the board and the way the game works with stars, I cannot think of a way to stop farming but keep a steady and instant car/cash flow for everyone. Increasing rewards and putting only cars on the board could help a bit, as putting better cards draw at higher tier could. But that can't stop farming or gaming draws - we need predictable food/cash income.

    You know, even now, in the american dream event, the amount of farming is even higher than normal. People win 4 hands, switch to a losing hand, but keep moving up a bit overall if everyone does, so even around 70-80 ranks you can find a farming hand, if not you compete but still go up. If people start to organize that way in a more general fashion, it's "worse" than farming - people climb and gets better rewards for better hands, but provide 3-star wins to others also, so most people have a worse win/loss ratio but can go up still since more people do, and it guarantees high amount of 3 card draw for most people. Better than daily farming?

    Players will always find a way in the current stars/draw system.

    At the end of the day, a daily where the last tier gets next to no reward, but board draws is good might be the lesser of all evil - keeps people competing in real events, keeps people upgrading, and people that really want to use their high end/prize cars everyday can use them in dailies where the stakes are lower. 
  • TimButTimBut Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you don't get the point. 

    I can get tier1 in probably 90% of events  but I always go smurfing, because it's more profitable to farm 3 stars and then end in top10. 

    Because if you go tier1 from the start - you win only 1 star. That's why I'm more motivated to smurf than actually fight for t1.

    That's why we were suggesting to let players in top10 get 3 stars from wins. 
  • rkorallerkoralle Posts: 733 ✭✭✭
    As long as you can only enter one club event at once the rewards are still too low!
  • sinnersinner Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    So there are no events finishing today, so no cash reward and no ceramic. We've had no chance to grind for cash (even though I've played about 10 BORING club events, I'm still short, made about 50k for over the whole day) No income tonight, no pack opening. Hutch you have to have at least one event finishing per day, you are making this impossible. Give your player base some reward and regard for christ's sake. What am I playing this for ? If you are not bringing back dailys we need more events running.
    Post edited by sinner on
  • Hutch_RobinHutch_Robin Posts: 925 admin
    Karhgath said:
    I hardly see a balance where increased tier reward but reduced board will help those in my situation. In those, drawing cards during the event gives more reward - it's not even dedicated farming: you lose a bunch, you win a few and zig zag there. If you can get quick upgrades, you can maybe climb another Tier.

    Unless the last 2 tiers bring much, much higher reward, reducing the board will leave us dry. Of course, when I can compete I compete and it's nice to get better reward, but I also do need constant board rewards too to progress/fuse.

    Also, events are 2-3 days long on average - this is again, same issue with club - delayed rewards. Boards are instant reward, you can plan for them, you can expect them - need to upgrade? Lose a couple of hands in a non-competitive (e.g. daily) event to then get to win a couple of 3-star hands: done. Then you can climb the board more on events you care about.

    So I've been raking my brain to help you guys with ideas to stop farming the board in a organized manner and help keep average income for most players, but it's hard.

    With the board and the way the game works with stars, I cannot think of a way to stop farming but keep a steady and instant car/cash flow for everyone. Increasing rewards and putting only cars on the board could help a bit, as putting better cards draw at higher tier could. But that can't stop farming or gaming draws - we need predictable food/cash income.
    Some thoughtful points here. Players who occasionally get 3 stars while trying their best would end up better off, as the tier rewards would be better. We could still have the predictability of prize boards, if the prize balance promotes winning more and so more events were held. You're right, it's hard. I do think this can help a bit - while not preventing farming (and that's okay).
  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 667 admin
    Bumping this back up for further discussion.

    So a promising idea is taking some of the cash/gold out of prize boards and put it into the end-of-event prize tiers. This would mean farming is still possible, but wouldn't be as disproportionately valuable compared to anything else (like trying to actually do well in an event). It's always been a bit odd that you could sometimes make more than 1st place gets just by farming the boards.

    I do note that this would incentivise fall-and-rise farming, where you put in a terrible hand at the start to farm easy wins at the bottom, then carefully farm your way up to your true position by the end. While this still isn't exactly the 'spirit of the game', it's not as bad as spending almost every event farming in Tier 5 full-time. As well as requiring the good cars to rank well at the end, you also need a broad enough garage to make the most out of the rest of the leaderboard, and you need to play quite strategically to make sure you maximise your farming without missing out on your deserved tier at the end. 

    Clearly people like their D/E cards, so we'd definitely need to keep those in prize boards even if we reduce the overall cash value (to put it into end-of-event prizes) - while we're at it, we should probably have D/E/F all represented. It's always been a strange part of Top Drives that most Commons come from the plastic packs people get from T5 in their Daily smarfing, apart from that they aren't "common" at all.

    If we could do this prize board rebalance (and tuned the event/challenge/club events economy a bit to avoid too much inflation), we would be open to having a fixed schedule of additional, largely open events... possibly even on a daily basis.
  • MSteeLMSteeL Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No. If you wont bring back daily events, leave other events as they are. This is even further step from making it easier for new players. 
  • MSteeLMSteeL Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But you could always boost the end of event prizes because why not? We arent making much cash these days anyway. 
  • AvengedAvenged Posts: 520 ✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    Nortonata said:
    RobGripes said:
    Inflation is the devaluing of currency due to increased cost of goods. Tim I think Hutch's philosophy is to keep the prices the same throughout, so the currency maintains value, but with an increasing number of cars in the game that very policy is actually causing inflation.

    The longer this goes on, the harder it is for people to upgrade all the cars in their garage. I've said it a long time ago but this is a car collecting game. The collecting is the fun part, along with strategy to use your upgrade paths to be competitive to.... collect more cars!

    The game should in fact supply more funds to players in order for them to keep collecting at the same pace. This is true for both long-term players and new ones also. Imagine the poor new player who's just discovered TD:

    New car collecting game, great!
    Campaign is fun. A fixed difficulty single-player mode that 'I' can eventually beat. 
    you're winning lots of various cars, you're newly qualified to compete online and you see players who are far, far stronger than you.
    you upgrade here and there, you learn, adapt and become a smarter player eventually.

    The longer you play, the more it becomes apparent. The endless CF offers, the sheer volume of cars to be won, with a tiny garage unless you spend gold to expand it. This is quickly becoming an insurmountable challenge. With no end in sight, I may as well not begin. People love a goal they can complete - but hate one that keeps moving the goalposts. 

    Long-term players like myself have continued collecting and playing to collect. This is a major draw to this game. Now more than ever before it feels like a task that is becoming harder and harder to do.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anyone really thinks they will win every car in the game. The expectation is though, that I can maintain this same pace, and with the devalued currency (due to additional cars) the goalposts have moved.

    Aside from that, our most profitable game mode has been removed so there is little hope.  

    The key here is motivation. We're lacking it and I suspect it is in part to do with what I've outlined here. 
    THIS. Please read this @Hutch_Tim @Hutch_Robin.

    The only reason there is so much negativity at the moment is that so many people love this game and want it to work. I understand that changes need to be made, and updates are generally welcomed, but surely you can see that this has been a backward step. I, as many others have, have invested a fair bit of money and a huge amount of time in this game. If 93% of people want something, why not do that thing whilst working on something else in the background? There is absolutely no shame in admitting fault and working to improve something.
    I don't wanna hit 'agree' cos it seems rather conceited but I want to agree with your final point about it being okay to admit being wrong about something.

    Hutch have admitted that they hadn't correctly estimated the player-base's reaction to this new format. They aren't admitting that they will bring back the daily, and instead saying they are going to look at what changes they could make. The answer is staring them in the face though, it's so easy that it becomes frustrating they don't just implement it.

    Bring back dailies immediately + lower prizes for clubs in meantime (IF they aren't willing to give out more currency during this interim) 

    >

    work behind the scenes on improving the structure to bring in when ready, during which, the players are happy to continue.


    I think they need to stop worrying so much about the long-term currency inflation issue. No one can complete the game anyway! The big issue is if players really do leave, which they will once they know this is a lost cause. So far, people are only sticking around in the hope that Hutch makes the right decision. The ball is in your court folks. We're waiting to see what you do with it.
    If inflation were truly a concern for them, they'd stop offering multiple CFs for every common event up to 15x for finals. It's absurd the garage needed just for a mid tier ceramic event due to this. I'm sure that drives away many possible new players from becoming long term as well.
    It might as well be a sort of inflation, really. The artificial inflation of average garage strength via the voluminous offering of 10000 event-specific CF every single event.

    You know, I'd be cool(er) if they offered maybe 3x 1499 or even 1399 generic CF per event. But making the CF event-specific just screams "QUICK CASH GRAB". And making it so every time... Ugh.
  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2019
    Given the next comment is about the changes and the return of the daily i changed me comment.
    Thanks @Hutch_Robin and the rest of your team for taking your time to reconsider a few things. I hope it works out and we can focus more on the fun part again.
    Post edited by AndreasSimmer on
  • David_FookDavid_Fook Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2019
    Not gonna lie, sounds pretty dope. More events is what we’ve been after, and personally I would accept lower value prize boards in favour of more events and better awards for winning

    a new reward? Tell us more...
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