ABS/TCS Demo please

0171801718 Posts: 484 ✭✭✭
Hello,


@Mrpiratepete doubts the effects of ABS/TCS on the cars' performance [1].

Wouldn't it be cool if you could create a 2nd version of a car that originally has ABS/TCS but in this 2nd version you change the color and turn ABS/TCS off and race them against each other on wet twisty circuit? I'm not talking about implementing such cars into the game, just show us a demo. This could be a part of the TD Youtube Show and yes ofc you can throw CF packs at us for having such great ideas (just kidding).

Personally I'm sure they do work, as I have often played matchups minding that one car does have them and the other does not. I also think that you can actually see it when you watch such races. (Also, ABS can make you win Hillclimbs ;-))




Comments

  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just commenting so it stays on page 1, I really think this would be a cool demonstration.
    If this happens in a Top Drives Show, can someone please inform me?
  • 43MK443MK4 Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was quite disappointed with my Caterham Levante in rain when I tried to use it in one of recent events. Im really curious TCS is really working properly on this car after it was added in one of the patches.
    The car was given out as a prize without TCS originally.
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 7,267 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There was testing right after the patch, which showed that it had improved performance in the rain.  You can probably search and find the thread.
  • S3XYS3XY Posts: 369 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    HeissRod said:
    There was testing right after the patch, which showed that it had improved performance in the rain.  You can probably search and find the thread.
    Still.. I don’t think TCS is keeping the wheels from spinning too much. Otherwise it is hard to explain why a car with faster 0-60 and better MRA would lose drag
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 7,267 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can't think of any good reason, @S3XY.

    And I guess someone doesn't believe me that testing was done, which showed improved performance?  lol
  • S3XYS3XY Posts: 369 ✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    I can't think of any good reason, @S3XY.

    And I guess someone doesn't believe me that testing was done, which showed improved performance?  lol
    Haha wasn't me. @HeissRod
    TCS and ABS definately help quite a bit for most tracks as I recall. Would be great for Hutch to do a demo with the drag race too.
  • milewski1015milewski1015 Posts: 2,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    I can't think of any good reason, @S3XY.

    And I guess someone doesn't believe me that testing was done, which showed improved performance?  lol
    Maybe due to the engine upgrades increases traction bonus?
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 7,267 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    HeissRod said:
    I can't think of any good reason, @S3XY.

    And I guess someone doesn't believe me that testing was done, which showed improved performance?  lol
    Maybe due to the engine upgrades increases traction bonus?
    That was my first guess, but the Levante should then pass the KTM.  Admittedly, I haven't looked up the MRA, though.

    Edit:
    Caterham - 88.61
    X-Bow RR - 84.13 (at 333?  The one above is tuned more, so the MRA is slightly better)

    I guess it depends on how long until the Caterham gets full traction compared to the RR?
    S3XY said:
    HeissRod said:
    I can't think of any good reason, @S3XY.

    And I guess someone doesn't believe me that testing was done, which showed improved performance?  lol
    Haha wasn't me. @HeissRod
    TCS and ABS definately help quite a bit for most tracks as I recall. Would be great for Hutch to do a demo with the drag race too.
    Found it for ya, @S3XY

    https://forums.hutchgames.com/discussion/comment/108242/#Comment_108242
  • MoogMoog Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    It could win because doesn’t Hutch have an acceleration curve rather than an MRA figure? Perhaps the Levante is pants after 100?
  • 43MK443MK4 Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the event I was referring to in my post above Levante was loosing wet drags to other RWD cars that it normally beat in dry conditions. It was really strange to see it perform so bad vs same cars just because of rainy conditions.
  • REALAISREALAIS Posts: 907 ✭✭✭✭
    @Hutch_Tim
    0-60-0 gravel
    0-150 gravel
    Can we expect fix to that aswell in upcoming update or that will be delayed?

  • milewski1015milewski1015 Posts: 2,227 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    01718 said:

    Wouldn't it be cool if you could create a 2nd version of a car that originally has ABS/TCS but in this 2nd version you change the color and turn ABS/TCS off and race them against each other on wet twisty circuit? I'm not talking about implementing such cars into the game, just show us a demo. T

    This is a great idea! I spoke to Jon about it and it looks like he'll be able to do it for a January TD episode. If we can't fit it in I'll just report the results back here.

    Meanwhile, based on what I can access right now, quite a good test is the following match-up:
    2008 Caterham RS Levante (TS 150, 0-60 2.9, Handling 90), has Traction control but not ABS (after a huge discussion a while back)
    vs
    2013 Caterham Seven 620 R (TS 155, 0-60 2.8, Handling 91), no TC or ABS

    The Levante has superior MRA, so it's not a fair comparison on anything fast, but we can get a good insight into traction by considering twistier tracks. Here's some comparisons:

    Twisty Road dry, stock times:
    Levante: 69.47s
    Seven 620 R: 69.23s (winner)

    Twisty Road wet, stock times:
    Levante: 83.63s (winner)
    Seven 620 R: 84.13s


    Car Park dry, stock times:
    Levante: 45.00s
    Seven 620 R: 44.97s (winner)

    Car Park wet, stock times:
    Levante: 51.23s (winner)
    Seven 620 R: 51.27s

    So in both cases, that small extra advantage in traction changes the result. When Jon runs his test we'll be able to more clearly show the difference, and also the difference of ABS.

    Regarding that Levante vs. X-Bow result, that does look weird, especially as the Levante has much better MRA. The key effects in play are:
    1) Those times are for a 333 Levante vs a 966 X-Bow - which means the X-Bow has 6 upgrades worth of 'engine upgrades improve traction'
    2) The 'waterfront drag' is one of the shortest (at 23.7% of a mile). That means, on the wet version, the period of time in which both cars are stuck at their traction limit takes up a larger proportion of the race, and so the advantage of both a lower 0-60 time and better MRA is reduced.

    To get an idea of how that adds up, here's some comparisons:

    Waterfront drag
    Upgrades / dry time / wet time
    Levante
    000 10.53 / 11.60
    330 10.33 / 11.53
    660 10.17 / 11.50
    990 10.00 / 11.47

    X-Bow RR
    000 11.53 / 11.97
    330 11.27 / 11.77
    660 11.00 / 11.57
    990 10.73 / 11.40

    So at equal upgrades and in both conditions, the Levante wins as expected. The question is then how can the X-Bow's upgrades make enough difference to take the win in the above case.

    One odd thing you can see above is that when conditions turn wet, the Levante gets around 10%-15% slower vs the dry, where the X-Bow is only 4%-6% slower. I believe that's because of point (2) above - by having a lower 0-60, the Levante has "more to lose" when it has to go slow to stick to the traction limit (as the two cars will accelerate very similarly while they are at that limit).

    So, this is a bit like the way a rolling start removes the advantage of a lower 0-60 car; when both cars are at the traction limit they accelerate at the same speed (or very slightly faster if one has TC). I think this also explains why it only takes a relatively small advantage in traction (from the engine upgrades) to make a difference. Poor track conditions remove the advantage the faster-on-dry car has (by constraining it to the traction limit), and also as the upgraded car has slightly better traction it can pull away from the very start (as it has a higher traction limit) and escape the traction limit to floor it sooner.

    In terms of being practical, I'm currently favouring reducing the amount by which engine upgrades improve traction, rather than remove the effect entirely, as that will be less disruptive to the meta and enable us to judge how many weird results we can clear up that way - possibly most of them. However, the next update will focus on fixing the 'Demon bug' (extremely low 0-60 cars don't have enough traction to hit their correct figures) and the x-y mph bug (where the wrong car wins if both DNF). 
    Interesting insight as always Tim. Thanks for the update about the bug fixes as well. My first impression leads me to believe that reducing but not removing “engine upgrades increase traction” would be the way to go as well, but who knows how it’ll turn out until it actually happens? 
  • Blue2moroBlue2moro Posts: 2,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Hutch_Tim I really hope any update that alters something as fundamental as "engine upgrades traction" will come with an amnesty on altering tunes. I previously suggested some form of method for changing tunes in game without needing to contact support. This should be a temporary offering for the 1st week after the update and of course no tri series running in that period where people can change their tunes.
  • 0171801718 Posts: 484 ✭✭✭
    @Hutch_Tim

    Thanks for your insights, I'm really looking forward to the January Episode of the TD Show.

    Meanwhile, let me add some evidence: 


    Race Info was TCS and indeed the Patrol has it while the Ranger doesnt. 
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