Ranking need to be fixed

2

Comments

  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,917 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mals said:
    I hope hutch is thinking in a new best system
    Probably not, this is the best system for them now as if you want a prize car you have to ticket spam at the end no matter how good your hand is. 
    The chances of getting one without spending just took a massive nosedive.
    Maybe Hutch should consider the fun factor.. My impression is that none of the players favors the new point system. For me it is just another step the quit the game, it becomes chores instead of a lil thrill inbetween.

  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mals said:
    I hope hutch is thinking in a new best system
    Probably not, this is the best system for them now as if you want a prize car you have to ticket spam at the end no matter how good your hand is. 
    The chances of getting one without spending just took a massive nosedive.
    Maybe Hutch should consider the fun factor.. My impression is that none of the players favors the new point system. For me it is just another step the quit the game, it becomes chores instead of a lil thrill inbetween.

    What is this fun you speak of?
  • Blue2moroBlue2moro Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why make a fun game when you can make an insanely profitable one.
  • SchmidtiSchmidti Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    Next final will be not so interesting for me. I don't have time on 22.12 in the evening to play. So I could have the best hand in my bracket (I will not have that - but don't stop dreaming), nevertheless I will have no chance to win that car caused by the new point system.

    Don't know what to think about that...

  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 7,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    (2) Elo score difference / base score
    The part of the score that remains the same is this base score, and the way it is modified by the scores of the two players involved, which works much like Elo scores in chess.

    The reason behind Elo-style scoring is to try to "correctly" rank players by how good they are. If a chess player of score 500 beats another player of score 2500, the calculation reads this as meaning these two players should be much more closely matched than their scores indicate, so it will give the 500-score player a big point boost and take a lot of points of the 2500 player. On the other hand, if the 500-score player loses to the 2500-score player, this isn't too surprising, and their rankings shouldn't change much, so the 500-score player will only lose a few points and the 2500-score player will only gain a few points.

    We figured it made sense to bring a similar system into Top Drives. If someone has 500 more points than you and you beat them, we want to help you close that difference down more quickly because you should probably be at a similar or better rank. On the other hand, if you beat someone with 500 points fewer than you, your relative points position is already correct, so you only get a smaller amount and they lose a bit less.
    I get the reasoning behind this, but there is another aspect to think about.  Consider that two players have identical hands, but the tracks in an event make it such that changing up the cars on each play mean they can always win against each other.  Player 1 plays much more often than player 2, so they build a lead.  However, as that lead builds, the amount of gap being built starts to diminish (due to the Elo scoring), lowering the amount won per hand.  Player 2 plays less tickets, but since the opponent is above them, they gain way more points (due to Elo scoring) against player 1, who was encouraged to play more.  As such, player 1 cannot shake player 2 because of this scoring they gain.  At the end, player 1 playing more often isn't really an advantage and player 2 can just spam a few tickets to win at the last minute.  Now, not every event has these identical hands, but the concept remains the same.
  • Blue2moroBlue2moro Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the rose tinted Hutch glasses need fixing.
  • baestbaest Posts: 551 ✭✭✭✭
    In chess, all players have exactly the same pieces. This is a fundamentally flawed argument.
  • RWareRWare Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Ozzman thanks so much for this

    This is the sort of clarity I was looking for.

    I assume Active means ''My ticket'' and Inactive means ''Opponent Ticket"?
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Tim for yet another overcomplicated answer, trying to prove us all wrong. I see it now, hutch is always right,. Ticket spamming never really happened. 
    I guess it was just my imagination. 
  • BoxtaSBoxtaS Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you take all boring ceramic events into account it may seem as not have been changed, who is dull enough to buy tickets there (well ,appearently this now became a thing too). Tri-series ticketbuying got out of hand.  @Mrpiratepete , relax, its not just imagination...

    Players above had even more races...
    Wow, I thought my bracket was bad. 

    Taking the guy in 9th, with 400 races let’s say he must have bought 300 tickets. I think that’s 6000 gold, right? Considering buying all 15 CFs would cost 24,000 gold, the tickets seem like a bargain - assuming your hand is good enough to pull it off without buying the CFs as well. 

    Rightly or wrongly, ticket spamming has become a very viable strategy it seems. Probably more honourable than late joining imo. For the time being it seems best to save gold for tickets rather than CFs...
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 7,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BoxtaS said:
    If you take all boring ceramic events into account it may seem as not have been changed, who is dull enough to buy tickets there (well ,appearently this now became a thing too). Tri-series ticketbuying got out of hand.  @Mrpiratepete , relax, its not just imagination...

    Players above had even more races...
    Wow, I thought my bracket was bad. 

    Taking the guy in 9th, with 400 races let’s say he must have bought 300 tickets. I think that’s 6000 gold, right? Considering buying all 15 CFs would cost 24,000 gold, the tickets seem like a bargain - assuming your hand is good enough to pull it off without buying the CFs as well. 

    Rightly or wrongly, ticket spamming has become a very viable strategy it seems. Probably more honourable than late joining imo. For the time being it seems best to save gold for tickets rather than CFs...
    Does that calculation involve servicing the cars?
  • BoxtaSBoxtaS Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @HeissRod no, I didn’t think of that. Was considering the tickets to be bought gradually, but you’re right - if you bought them fast you’d need to add ~150 gold every 10 tickets which would increase the costs a lot 
  • TGPDTGPD Posts: 6,069 ✭✭✭✭✭

    4-7 are all on hundreds of pts with negative matches
  • Evil_RabbitEvil_Rabbit Posts: 279 ✭✭✭
    TGPD said:

    4-7 are all on hundreds of pts with negative matches
    Move along, there is nothing to see here. All, and I say all is ok here. Trust me,  I Know more about pointsystems than anyone else
  • heteo69heteo69 Posts: 1
    Some
  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    Ok I see Tim's point,

    I can beat everyone below me but none above me, so when they hit me I don't lose position because it's actually fair enough to be 4rth, I haven't bought a single ticket.

  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok I see Tim's point,

    I can beat everyone below me but none above me, so when they hit me I don't lose position because it's actually fair enough to be 4rth, I haven't bought a single ticket.

    And now imagine it's a final and the people below you start spamming tickets
  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 380 ✭✭✭
    That's side effect, the real intention was (I think) to gain or loose points related to your opponents and the score difference, if someone directly could beat me, sure he deserves to take my position, if he can't he would need some kind of help from others and a lot of tickets. In a large scale this could be very complicated. I am not happy with the new scoring system but I can see what was the intention and some times works as intended. 
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's side effect, the real intention was (I think) to gain or loose points related to your opponents and the score difference, if someone directly could beat me, sure he deserves to take my position, if he can't he would need some kind of help from others and a lot of tickets. In a large scale this could be very complicated. I am not happy with the new scoring system but I can see what was the intention and some times works as intended. 
    I can see the intention too but in reality it doesn't work.
  • OzzmanOzzman Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21
    RWare said:
    01718 said:
    RWare said:
    When are we fixing the late join fix?

    What is this pic supposed to Display? Might as Well be sleepers who joined in time (1-0)  and played 5 tickets in the last Minutes?
    It shows a gen 1 bracket, by that I mean I was in the first daily bracket that opened in EU. For a 24hr bracket those scores are pretty respectable, and show activity.

    The 5-0 and 6-0 guys entered in the final hour, or rather final 20 mins as the bracket overfilled to 116.

    What this shows is that you can still late join and reach T2 with ease.
    I moved this issue here because it's worth talking about, but let's not spam the 2020 updates thread with this.
    I just looked at all the current running events and it looks like the 0 point is somewhere around P45 in all of them. Of course this could change until the events end, but I doubt it would move significantly. So that is where a late joiner would usually start his climb right?
    Now with the current scoring system 5 victories (assuming you always beat players with similar scores to yours) you can get up to around 90 points, which is at the border of T2/T3 in all my currently running events, and as you can see in the screenshot by Ryan, it was the same in his daily bracket as well at the end yesterday. They tried to solve this by giving even more bonus points for active wins, to encourage early activity, but it clearly didn't work, and had a side effect of introducing ticket spamming as a successful strategy. The main problem with that IMO was, that the scoring system remained the same, even when the brackets started overfilling. So here's an idea. The current system is fine, maybe a few more bonus points could also work, but only until the brackets start overfilling. After that remove the bonus points for active wins. So 5 victories would only get you around 75 points and you'd probably need a refill if you want to reach T2, and even then it would be a gamble. I think it's worth a try, but I'm not sure if this can be done with a server side update only. @Hutch_Tim, what do you think?
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