Ranking need to be fixed

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Comments

  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mals said:
    I hope hutch is thinking in a new best system
    Probably not, this is the best system for them now as if you want a prize car you have to ticket spam at the end no matter how good your hand is. 
    The chances of getting one without spending just took a massive nosedive.
    Maybe Hutch should consider the fun factor.. My impression is that none of the players favors the new point system. For me it is just another step the quit the game, it becomes chores instead of a lil thrill inbetween.

  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mals said:
    I hope hutch is thinking in a new best system
    Probably not, this is the best system for them now as if you want a prize car you have to ticket spam at the end no matter how good your hand is. 
    The chances of getting one without spending just took a massive nosedive.
    Maybe Hutch should consider the fun factor.. My impression is that none of the players favors the new point system. For me it is just another step the quit the game, it becomes chores instead of a lil thrill inbetween.

    What is this fun you speak of?
  • Blue2moroBlue2moro Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why make a fun game when you can make an insanely profitable one.
  • SchmidtiSchmidti Posts: 203 ✭✭✭
    Next final will be not so interesting for me. I don't have time on 22.12 in the evening to play. So I could have the best hand in my bracket (I will not have that - but don't stop dreaming), nevertheless I will have no chance to win that car caused by the new point system.

    Don't know what to think about that...

  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    (2) Elo score difference / base score
    The part of the score that remains the same is this base score, and the way it is modified by the scores of the two players involved, which works much like Elo scores in chess.

    The reason behind Elo-style scoring is to try to "correctly" rank players by how good they are. If a chess player of score 500 beats another player of score 2500, the calculation reads this as meaning these two players should be much more closely matched than their scores indicate, so it will give the 500-score player a big point boost and take a lot of points of the 2500 player. On the other hand, if the 500-score player loses to the 2500-score player, this isn't too surprising, and their rankings shouldn't change much, so the 500-score player will only lose a few points and the 2500-score player will only gain a few points.

    We figured it made sense to bring a similar system into Top Drives. If someone has 500 more points than you and you beat them, we want to help you close that difference down more quickly because you should probably be at a similar or better rank. On the other hand, if you beat someone with 500 points fewer than you, your relative points position is already correct, so you only get a smaller amount and they lose a bit less.
    I get the reasoning behind this, but there is another aspect to think about.  Consider that two players have identical hands, but the tracks in an event make it such that changing up the cars on each play mean they can always win against each other.  Player 1 plays much more often than player 2, so they build a lead.  However, as that lead builds, the amount of gap being built starts to diminish (due to the Elo scoring), lowering the amount won per hand.  Player 2 plays less tickets, but since the opponent is above them, they gain way more points (due to Elo scoring) against player 1, who was encouraged to play more.  As such, player 1 cannot shake player 2 because of this scoring they gain.  At the end, player 1 playing more often isn't really an advantage and player 2 can just spam a few tickets to win at the last minute.  Now, not every event has these identical hands, but the concept remains the same.
  • Blue2moroBlue2moro Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the rose tinted Hutch glasses need fixing.
  • baestbaest Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭
    In chess, all players have exactly the same pieces. This is a fundamentally flawed argument.
  • RWareRWare Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Ozzman thanks so much for this

    This is the sort of clarity I was looking for.

    I assume Active means ''My ticket'' and Inactive means ''Opponent Ticket"?
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Tim for yet another overcomplicated answer, trying to prove us all wrong. I see it now, hutch is always right,. Ticket spamming never really happened. 
    I guess it was just my imagination. 
  • BoxtaSBoxtaS Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you take all boring ceramic events into account it may seem as not have been changed, who is dull enough to buy tickets there (well ,appearently this now became a thing too). Tri-series ticketbuying got out of hand.  @Mrpiratepete , relax, its not just imagination...

    Players above had even more races...
    Wow, I thought my bracket was bad. 

    Taking the guy in 9th, with 400 races let’s say he must have bought 300 tickets. I think that’s 6000 gold, right? Considering buying all 15 CFs would cost 24,000 gold, the tickets seem like a bargain - assuming your hand is good enough to pull it off without buying the CFs as well. 

    Rightly or wrongly, ticket spamming has become a very viable strategy it seems. Probably more honourable than late joining imo. For the time being it seems best to save gold for tickets rather than CFs...
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BoxtaS said:
    If you take all boring ceramic events into account it may seem as not have been changed, who is dull enough to buy tickets there (well ,appearently this now became a thing too). Tri-series ticketbuying got out of hand.  @Mrpiratepete , relax, its not just imagination...

    Players above had even more races...
    Wow, I thought my bracket was bad. 

    Taking the guy in 9th, with 400 races let’s say he must have bought 300 tickets. I think that’s 6000 gold, right? Considering buying all 15 CFs would cost 24,000 gold, the tickets seem like a bargain - assuming your hand is good enough to pull it off without buying the CFs as well. 

    Rightly or wrongly, ticket spamming has become a very viable strategy it seems. Probably more honourable than late joining imo. For the time being it seems best to save gold for tickets rather than CFs...
    Does that calculation involve servicing the cars?
  • BoxtaSBoxtaS Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @HeissRod no, I didn’t think of that. Was considering the tickets to be bought gradually, but you’re right - if you bought them fast you’d need to add ~150 gold every 10 tickets which would increase the costs a lot 
  • TGPDTGPD Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭✭✭

    4-7 are all on hundreds of pts with negative matches
  • Evil_RabbitEvil_Rabbit Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    TGPD said:

    4-7 are all on hundreds of pts with negative matches
    Move along, there is nothing to see here. All, and I say all is ok here. Trust me,  I Know more about pointsystems than anyone else
  • heteo69heteo69 Posts: 1
    Some
  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 238 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    Ok I see Tim's point,

    I can beat everyone below me but none above me, so when they hit me I don't lose position because it's actually fair enough to be 4rth, I haven't bought a single ticket.

  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok I see Tim's point,

    I can beat everyone below me but none above me, so when they hit me I don't lose position because it's actually fair enough to be 4rth, I haven't bought a single ticket.

    And now imagine it's a final and the people below you start spamming tickets
  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 238 ✭✭✭
    That's side effect, the real intention was (I think) to gain or loose points related to your opponents and the score difference, if someone directly could beat me, sure he deserves to take my position, if he can't he would need some kind of help from others and a lot of tickets. In a large scale this could be very complicated. I am not happy with the new scoring system but I can see what was the intention and some times works as intended. 
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's side effect, the real intention was (I think) to gain or loose points related to your opponents and the score difference, if someone directly could beat me, sure he deserves to take my position, if he can't he would need some kind of help from others and a lot of tickets. In a large scale this could be very complicated. I am not happy with the new scoring system but I can see what was the intention and some times works as intended. 
    I can see the intention too but in reality it doesn't work.
  • 0171801718 Posts: 193 ✭✭✭
    I can only emphasize, that the ELO-approach does not suit TD. The major reason is the "reciprocal" vincibility of hands as it was described before.

    Another reason is, that the system doesnt differ between a clear victory and one, where your can barely win 3 out of 5 races while the opponent does not reach 150 points with the other two (e.g. 150:149 points). In consequence, a much weaker hand in T2 gets a bonus for barely beating a stronger hand (in T1). Looking at this more globally, this weak hand will be beaten my more players around that spot in the ranking, however this can be compensated by ticket spamming.

    A third reason, why the ELO-like-system is questionable is the asymmetry in matches. In chess (with human partners at least), you have to be present and to some extent willing to participate. In TD you can be targeted multiple times passively.

    On the other hand, I can see that there are some reasons why you would want a functional scoring system. I think it would have been best not to introduce both changes (late join fix + updated scoring) at once. Consequently I would suggest to just take it back (have a vote on it!?) and analyze, how that late join fix actually works with the old system. Perhaps it is fine...
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