PL11 - changes in 0-60 times of non-corrected, upgraded cars, and race times

Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 671 admin
edited February 24 in General Discussion
You may have noticed that 0-60 times have changed on some of your upgraded cars in PL11, even if no correction was listed for these cars. In most cases they show quicker times, in a few cases slower times. You'll also see that race times have changed.

Here's a summary of what's behind this:

1) a) Demon bug fix improves upgraded 0-60 times
We gave RWD Perf and Slick cars more traction on dry asphalt so they could actually hit their intended 0-60 times. This doesn't change what you see on the card at stock, but it does make upgrades more effective for these cars, hence the quicker 0-60 times.

1) b) Demon Bug Fix increases traction for FWD and RWD perf/slick cars
Just as it says - FWD also get the increased traction on dry asphalt.

1) c) Demon Bug Fix affects cornering
This should have been included in the patch notes! On a dry asphalt fast and/or tight corner you will sometimes see the orange 'traction warning' triangle above the car; this means it is slowing down in order to maintain traction. By increasing the traction on dry asphalt, these corners can be taken faster. This will affect times and in some cases which tune is best.

2) Rounding
It looks as if there was an undocumented change to how numbers are rounded. For example: the Renault Sport Megane Trophy upgraded 699 showed a 3.1s 0-60 time in PL10, and a 3.2s 0-60 time in PL11. However, in both versions it actually achieves 60mph in 3.167s. It seems this was rounded down before, and is now rounded to the nearest 0.1s.

3) Simulation run at 60fps instead of 30fps
I noticed in PL11 that close race results were coming in at 0.02s and 0.01s differences, whereas previously the closest a race could be without tying was within 0.03s. This is because we unintentionally (!) ran the 'resolver' (which simulates the result of every care on every track at every upgrade level) at 60fps instead of the usual 30fps. This produces more accurate results in general, and will change exact times on most tracks.

We had discussed doing this before to improve accuracy, but didn't do it as we thought it would take twice as long to simulate every race (and it already takes a very long time). I guess we should have checked, because it turns out that isn't the case - it seems like most of the computational time comes from loading in all the different upgrade/car/track scenarios.

So yes, anyone keeping a log of times, these will all have changed I'm afraid. As you've observed, optimal tunes on different tracks will also have changed in some cases. I'm going to check on that next.

A silver lining: in my collected list of 'upgraded car loses' examples on dry asphalt, all but 1 are now fixed, due to a combination of point (1)(c) and point (3) above.
Post edited by Hutch_Gsearch on
«13

Comments

  • 0liver770liver77 Posts: 357 ✭✭✭
    Don’t you test software before releasing it?  :confused:
  • lemmings99olemmings99o Posts: 1,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So technically the rounding issue shouldn't affect any of the cars times in races but the traction upgrade in tuned cars probably will?
  • RWareRWare Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Andreas has highlighted to me Tim that Point 2 is happening to non-RWD cars. It needs further testing

    All Times from Twisty Circuit
    PL10:
    Golf TCR 969: 1:07.93
    Golf TCR 699: 1:07.89   (winner)

    PL11:
    Golf TCR 969: 1:07.90   (winner)
    Golf TCR 699: 1:07.91


    969 Golf goes 0.03 faster whilst the 699 Golf goes 0.02 slower

    RIP to those who tuned ''correctly'' and those who kept a timing database
  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Hutch_Tim , after sampling different types of cars on different tracks to compare old and new times, its safe to say that all times changed, regardless of rarity and drivetype!
    Could you please explain what you did, looks like many old tunes could be useless now. Did you decrease ETB and this causes the effect (on all cars)?
  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 671 admin
    Okay, we've done some more checking. A few more points, which I will edit into the list above.

    1) b) Demon Bug Fix increases traction for FWD and RWD perf/slick cars
    Just as it says - FWD also get the increased traction on dry asphalt.

    1) c) Demon Bug Fix affects cornering
    This should have been included in the patch notes! On a dry asphalt fast and/or tight corner you will sometimes see the orange 'traction warning' triangle above the car; this means it is slowing down in order to maintain traction. By increasing the traction on dry asphalt, these corners can be taken faster. This will affect times and potentially in some cases which tune is best.

    3) Simulation run at 60fps instead of 30fps
    I noticed close race results were coming in at 0.02s and 0.01s differences, whereas previously the closest a race could be without tying was within 0.03s. This is because we unintentionally (!) ran the 'resolver' (which simulates the result of every care on every track at every upgrade level) at 60fps instead of the usual 30fps. This produces more accurate results in general, and will change exact times on most tracks.

    We had discussed doing this before to improve accuracy, but didn't do it as we thought it would take twice as long to simulate every race (and it already takes a very long time). I guess we should have checked, because it turns out that isn't the case - it seems like most of the computational time comes from loading in all the different upgrade/car/track scenarios.

    So yes, anyone keeping a log of times, these will all have changed I'm afraid. As you've observed, optimal tunes on different tracks will also have changed in some cases. I'm going to check on that next.

    A silver lining: in my collected list of 'upgraded car loses' examples on dry asphalt, all but 1 are now fixed, due to a combination of point (1)(c) and point (3) above.
  • TD47959TD47959 Posts: 284 ✭✭✭
    Anybody else who has the normal Huayra and has maybe times for pre-update? I got the feeling it got slower overall on every drag 
  • 0liver770liver77 Posts: 357 ✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    Okay, we've done some more checking. A few more points, which I will edit into the list above.
    ...
    Again, this should be done before the release!

  • RuvlaRuvla Posts: 153 ✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim, i thought you have automation test with all cars and you automatically check that whatever change you do to the engine - it does not affect the race results or affect them in the right way...
  • RuvlaRuvla Posts: 153 ✭✭✭
    edited January 23
    when the resolver is touched it has wide ranging effects, and with a differential effect for say upgraded cars, that specific thing might not be in the testing plan - there isn't enough time to test everything, so we have to prioritise the things most likely to be at risk.

    - are you doing this testing manual?
  • kaje73kaje73 Posts: 332 ✭✭✭
    So will the resolver always be run at 60fps from now on, even though it was unintentional this time? 
  • hajduk_fanhajduk_fan Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    TD47959 said:
    Anybody else who has the normal Huayra and has maybe times for pre-update? I got the feeling it got slower overall on every drag 
    me too

    it does 1 mile in 25.90 upgraded 333
    don't know what it was before
  • mauro07mauro07 Posts: 2,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TC and ABS works? and if not, they will affect the results of races in future?
  • 2xDiP2xDiP Posts: 8
    Hutch_Tim said:
    You may have noticed that 0-60 times have changed on some of your upgraded cars in PL11, even if no correction was listed for these cars. In most cases they show quicker times, in a few cases slower times. You'll also see that race times have changed.
    ...
    How likely is it to make any other changes in the near future that could affect the results of the map globally?
  • alenCalenC Posts: 5
    TD47959 said:
    Anybody else who has the normal Huayra and has maybe times for pre-update? I got the feeling it got slower overall on every drag 
    me too

    it does 1 mile in 25.90 upgraded 333
    don't know what it was before
    233, before and after update 😔
  • hajduk_fanhajduk_fan Posts: 423 ✭✭✭
    Wow, that's pretty huge performance dropoff.

    WTF Hutch, that car wasn't even supposed to be changed, only the roadster version was supposed to be buffed.
  • O__VERO__VER Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭✭✭
    alenC said:
    TD47959 said:
    Anybody else who has the normal Huayra and has maybe times for pre-update? I got the feeling it got slower overall on every drag 
    me too

    it does 1 mile in 25.90 upgraded 333
    don't know what it was before
    233, before and after update 😔
    I'm pretty disappointed. I have one Huayra maxed and another with two fuses in it because it was once the best Italian car. Now all these new Lambos exist with their unrealistic acceleration and Hutch decides this is the one to nerf?
  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Imo cars longer in the game than three months should not be changed later. If they are still wrong, let it be. So many stats and performances in the game are wrong. I dont see this as a realistic racesimulation, but cars are just playcards to me. If Hutch has any other opinion they should maybe adress this problem one day, but hey, 53 new legendarys in the game now.
    People invest a lot of time and also money into specific cars and setups, you cant just change what they have paid for (without compensation). Best answer from support to one ot the bluewhales about changing the tune on a legendary: You have another one, just tune that up. Yeah.
    This wouldn't be a problem if retunes were easy in such cases
  • hifichrishifichris Posts: 560 ✭✭✭
    Imo cars longer in the game than three months should not be changed later. If they are still wrong, let it be. So many stats and performances in the game are wrong. I dont see this as a realistic racesimulation, but cars are just playcards to me. If Hutch has any other opinion they should maybe adress this problem one day, but hey, 53 new legendarys in the game now.
    People invest a lot of time and also money into specific cars and setups, you cant just change what they have paid for (without compensation). Best answer from support to one ot the bluewhales about changing the tune on a legendary: You have another one, just tune that up. Yeah.
    This wouldn't be a problem if retunes were easy in such cases
    It has been asked since PL6 I think. Since 969 wins slalom in reality.
    No answer for that.
  • mikesmikes Posts: 4,369 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    You may have noticed that 0-60 times have changed on some of your upgraded cars in PL11, even if no correction was listed for these cars. In most cases they show quicker times, in a few cases slower times. You'll also see that race times have changed.

    Here's a summary of what's behind this:

    1) a) Demon bug fix improves upgraded 0-60 times
    We gave RWD Perf and Slick cars more traction on dry asphalt so they could actually hit their intended 0-60 times. This doesn't change what you see on the card at stock, but it does make upgrades more effective for these cars, hence the quicker 0-60 times.

    1) b) Demon Bug Fix increases traction for FWD and RWD perf/slick cars
    Just as it says - FWD also get the increased traction on dry asphalt.

    You might want to check on that dry stipulation. On dirt, snow, and wet traction appears to have increased. I believe this has affected all surfaces. We have slick tire cars winning dirt slaloms and climbing wet dirt hills.
  • flop404flop404 Posts: 6
    I can understand the logic behind the "improved" resolver, and can live with restarting from scratch with the times log.

    What I would like to know before getting back to this is wether there will be a fix in the short term or not ; some behaviors with slick tires seem waaaaaaay off, and I'd rather not have to start again in two weeks, after a possible (and, from what I can see, much needed) 11.1 hotfix.
  • 0171801718 Posts: 498 ✭✭✭
    I am surprised this topic has not gained more traction (punintended) as this is the important discussion.

    From what I saw, the update has butchered game logic in a terrible way. Slick cars winning in wet dirt cannot be intentional.

    I also do not understand what happened to the Huayra. It is not in the patch logs and none of the explanations given here are sufficient as to why the performance on a dry asphalt drags has decreased. If anything, it should be better than before the update. So what happened here? An undocumented nerf? Or is this a systematic problem affecting more cars?


  • DannyDanny Posts: 623 ✭✭✭✭
    01718 said:
    I am surprised this topic has not gained more traction (punintended) as this is the important discussion.

    From what I saw, the update has butchered game logic in a terrible way. Slick cars winning in wet dirt cannot be intentional.

    I also do not understand what happened to the Huayra. It is not in the patch logs and none of the explanations given here are sufficient as to why the performance on a dry asphalt drags has decreased. If anything, it should be better than before the update. So what happened here? An undocumented nerf? Or is this a systematic problem affecting more cars?


    I think it’s probably because hutch don’t know themselves.

    The whole dynamics of the game has changed and you’d hope they’re looking into how to fix it. They clearly don’t have a decent testing procedure in place otherwise they’d have picked up a lot of the errors/ changes in the testing stage.

    Would be nice for a change though for hutch to hold their hands up and tell the testers (sorry I meant playerbase) they messed up and have a plan to fix it
  • Olli8888Olli8888 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭✭
    I think it’s funny, I read this and just read that Hutch always says: „it seems“ they really don’t know their own game
This discussion has been closed.