Epics moving to Legendary Discussion

O__VERO__VER Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 18 in General Discussion
I'm hoping to start a bit of a discussion on this because I've had a pretty bitter experience with the PL11.1 update. I think we need to discuss what we believe Hutch's responsibilities should be when a car moves up a tier, especially from Epic to Legendary.

The situation we have is that top Epic cars are becoming bottom-tier Legendaries where they will see hardly any use unless they are fully upgraded. A car that is a top car in someone's garage is becoming essentially useless. Unless a car has seen a massive buff, the performance is not drastically changing to get to Legendary (or not changing at all), but it is simply becoming harder to upgrade and more expensive to use (RQ-wise). A car that a player was very happy to pull is now near useless and the player is upset. It's lose-lose for the player.

My Experience
Last week when Hutch released the PL11.1 update, my game updated before I was aware of the many changes to my garage.

Other players whose game did not update straight away were given a grace period where they could remain on the PL11.0 update and continue to upgrade their Epics before they became Legendary. I did not get this chance.

When I found out that two of my not-fully-upgraded Epics had changed to Legendary, I thought "it's okay, Support will help me".

I immediately messaged Support and asked them to help me upgrade the cars. I offered Support the option of using the 24 Ultra Rares needed OR moving tunes from Epics that had been nerfed. Over a conversation that has so far taken five days, Support have refused to do either of these.

This morning I even asked that one of my Legendary cars that went up be swapped for a similar car that is still Epic, giving me the opportunity to still upgrade it. I've not heard back yet.

Hutch's Stance
Hutch's overall response today was:

"We are not backdating anything for players, sorry. [...] You can't ask to buy stock at the old price once it has gone up. I am afraid there is nothing more we can do about this."

The point about buying stock at the old price is not true in my opinion, and not a good example. To upgrade the cars for me literally costs Hutch nothing, so it's not like their cost prices have gone up or something. Also, I have had several cases in real life where I have received a sale price after a sale has ended.

Choosing NOT TO upgrade cars for me does cost Hutch in that I am now even more incensed with the game and am more unlikely to spend. It seems obvious to me.

I don't want to make this too much about me, but Hutch also recently nerfed my three best Paganis (and therefore three best Italian cars) and wouldn't do anything about it, so I am already fed up with this game and I at least hoped they might be lenient on this one.

EDIT: Just had this response from Robin:

"Those cars are now Legendary rarity. As with every update, some people are able to take advantage of changes in Rarity in the short window, everyone has the same information at the same time."

Given the update and announcement of changes happened while I was asleep, this is again not true. I don't understand why Hutch didn't give us at least a few days warning so we could decide what to do.

My Opinion
When a player pulls an Epic, it is their expectation that they can upgrade it with Ultra Rare cars. Therefore I believe Hutch should allow any player who pulled an Epic BEFORE it went up to Legendary to upgrade the car with Ultra Rares, even post update (via Support). Obviously only for the first couple of weeks after an update, and as long as the player has the requisite Ultra Rares and in game cash to upgrade an Epic.

In my opinion Hutch is being unfair and far too harsh on players. Especially when you factor in the inequality of them allowing some players to upgrade cars before they updated. There should be more warning of cars changing tier and there should be time for players to make a decision to upgrade.

Support should be there to Support players but it feels to me like a few people have taken advantage in the past and now we are left with a Support team that doesn't support anyone but Hutch.

________________________

I'm keen to hear others' thoughts and experiences on this.
«13

Comments

  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Two thoughts.
    1) Being upset with Hutch because you didn't get to delay the update on your device isn't really their fault, from my perspective.  You willingly have your device set to auto-update apps, right?  If so, I can't really see how Hutch is responsible for any of that.

    2) I understand your point about cars moving in rarity and different players having to upgrade them with different rarities of cars.  It sucks.  I pulled the Cayenne GTS right after it moved to a Legendary.  I realize that I will probably never upgrade it, even though it has been instrumental in a few events.  However, may I offer a counterpoint?  What about cars that move down in rarity?  Should players be forced to use epics to upgrade a car that is now an epic? (example: SLS Roadster)  I think the problem goes both ways.
  • S3XYS3XY Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18
    I didn't miss the window, started upgrading almost immediately after the patch notes were given. There was so little time, however, that I didn't manage to put the last fuse in before I was forced to update. Support won't help in this case either.

    I don't understand why this information couldn't have been made available sooner. We've gotten more heads-up on smaller changes, and this one was rather disruptive. And again, it was handled in a player-hostile way.
    I did take advantage of this update too. I expedited upgrades with gold with the fear of being forced to update. I requested a refund and of course, it was rejected. They replied "We do actually post this rarity changes late on purpose, because their new rarity level should be reflected in the new, higher cost of upgrading them. If you can put in some upgrades for a cheaper price before they move up, that's good, but we don't help you with that."

    I can understand the reasons here but the problem here is the inconsistency with what they have done in the past (announcing the rarity change a week ahead). If there are reasonable changes in processes like this, it should be communicated. This sort of management just makes me feel uncertain about everything.

    I want to comment again about the attitude here. "If you can put in some upgrades for a cheaper price before they move up, that's good, but we don't help you with that." just sounds like none of the problems caused by rarity change are caused by Hutch. You should be glad that you can still take advantage of Hutch's flaws.
  • milewski1015milewski1015 Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    S3XY said:
    HeissRod said:

    2) I understand your point about cars moving in rarity and different players having to upgrade them with different rarities of cars.  It sucks.  I pulled the Cayenne GTS right after it moved to a Legendary.  I realize that I will probably never upgrade it, even though it has been instrumental in a few events.  However, may I offer a counterpoint?  What about cars that move down in rarity?  Should players be forced to use epics to upgrade a car that is now an epic? (example: SLS Roadster)  I think the problem goes both ways.
    The root cause for these rarity changes is that Hutch fails to get correct data from a car when releasing into the game. I fully respect the effort our community is contributing to the car correction, but this should be Hutch's job and they should reward this community by helping them. The reasonable solution I can think of is to refund player 15 epic food and collect 15 UR food. This can be done by transferring tunes between other Epic/Legendary cars that players own. 

    The support team only responds to some requests with reasonable solutions, but every time they are doing this thinking they have done a big favor to players. Many of the "favors" are results of the inconsistency of the game's physical model, or Hutch can't get correct data from a car when releasing into the game, but rarely because the player wants to take advantage of the system.
    I understand your point, but the real root cause of rarity changes is game balance. Before car corrections were happening left and right, rarity changes were executed to balance the game around the addition of more cars. I don’t think that that’s an unfair reason to change rarities. Take other games like overwatch or league of legends for example. There are different metas that are created after each patch surrounding balance changes. Characters/abilities are tweaked based on usage and strength when compared to other characters/abilities. Back to Top Drives, take the Renault DeZir for example. Back when it was RQ18 it was an absolute monster for the RQ. You could get them pretty easily, it was easy to upgrade, and it punched far above its weight. Bumping it up to ultra rare was a necessary rarity change in my opinion - it was too strong to be considered a super rare because it outclassed all the others. 

    Yes, we have been seeing more rarity changes due to car corrections recently, but I’d argue that that’s also because more car corrections are being made. I agree that it feels like more and more corrections are necessary as Hutch continues to vomit cars into the game in pursuit/maintenance of the record for most cars in a video game. But I also understand their side of things and can cut them some slack. As players, we continually thirst for more content, more variety. Hutch adds more cars to appeal to that desire. Given my limited understanding of the car world (I’m not an IRL car buff like a lot of you guys), I understand that it might be difficult to obtain real life data on some of the more obscure or rare models out there - not to mention all the potential factors that influence test results. 

    Do I feel for @O_VER not being able to upgrade his ascending epics? Of course. I’ve been on the receiving end of that before (Cayenne GTS as @HeissRod mentioned), but luckily I was able to see the cars that I had were moving up used the last of my UR food and a good chunk of gold to get them upgraded in time. 

    But I can also understand the difficult place Hutch is put in when we’re banging on their door for more content. I think I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but I’d be all for putting off the new car additions, getting the existing ones right and ironing out bugs. But I also understand it’s hard to sell packs filled with the same old cars. Then again, given how desirable prize cars are, I can imagine they’d have no trouble driving pack sales using existing manufacturers if there was a good prize car up for grabs
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    goshko said:
    4) Car corrections usually come with major updates, but this time they came out of the blue. Why?
    First people complain that Hutch never does car corrections.  Now you're going to complain about having them happen?  Get outta here with that.
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18
    O__VER said:
    HeissRod said:
    Two thoughts.
    1) Being upset with Hutch because you didn't get to delay the update on your device isn't really their fault, from my perspective.  You willingly have your device set to auto-update apps, right?  If so, I can't really see how Hutch is responsible for any of that.

    2) I understand your point about cars moving in rarity and different players having to upgrade them with different rarities of cars.  It sucks.  I pulled the Cayenne GTS right after it moved to a Legendary.  I realize that I will probably never upgrade it, even though it has been instrumental in a few events.  However, may I offer a counterpoint?  What about cars that move down in rarity?  Should players be forced to use epics to upgrade a car that is now an epic? (example: SLS Roadster)  I think the problem goes both ways.
    Point one I get. However I still think Hutch should provide more obvious change logs well ahead of time. What if I accepted an update without knowing the full extent of the changes simply because Hutch hadn't made them clear? It is not the player's responsibility to be on these forums 24/7 to know what is happening.

    Point two I disagree with. If a car goes up in rarity, it costs the player a lot more (15 Epics, as apposed to Ultra Rares, and more cash) but more likely it just sits there and never gets used again. The player loses. But if a car goes down in rarity, it does not cost Hutch more – there is nobody who loses out. If anything, people are MORE LIKELY to upgrade it as an Epic than as a Legendary, so potentially this could benefit Hutch with more income. I do not think the problem goes both ways.
    I'm not sure what you mean by accepting the changes without them being clear?  If you in particular see an update on your device, and you had auto-updates off, wouldn't you log onto the forum to see what was changing?  I know you're enough of an old player to know they post that before the release, so being on here 24/7 isn't really a requirement.

    I get your desire for the change logs ahead of time, and I would like them as well for the same reasons, but I believe they limit the time between announcement and execution specifically so that the player base has a very limited time to take advantage of them.  Take for example some of the first rarity changes that were announced well ahead of time.  It gave some of the strong players a lot of time to amass fuse food that would be moving up in RQ.  Using your example, this effectively gives them the chance to gather UR food to use for Legendaries.  This is probably something Hutch wants to avoid, so they have shortened the time frame of the announcements.

    I think you may not be seeing all of the picture.  Yes, I get that players will be more likely to upgrade, now that the car has dropped in rarity.  (I had two SLS Roadsters as Legendaries, that I never touched.  Now that they dropped, I maxed them both.)   But what about the players who already upgraded the car as a Legendary?  Those players were forced to use epic food, where as you now get to use UR food.  See?  It is the same problem, just in reverse.  Those players feel wronged as well.
  • milewski1015milewski1015 Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    S3XY said:
    S3XY said:
    HeissRod said:

    2) I understand your point about cars moving in rarity and different players having to upgrade them with different rarities of cars.  It sucks.  I pulled the Cayenne GTS right after it moved to a Legendary.  I realize that I will probably never upgrade it, even though it has been instrumental in a few events.  However, may I offer a counterpoint?  What about cars that move down in rarity?  Should players be forced to use epics to upgrade a car that is now an epic? (example: SLS Roadster)  I think the problem goes both ways.
    The root cause for these rarity changes is that Hutch fails to get correct data from a car when releasing into the game. I fully respect the effort our community is contributing to the car correction, but this should be Hutch's job and they should reward this community by helping them. The reasonable solution I can think of is to refund player 15 epic food and collect 15 UR food. This can be done by transferring tunes between other Epic/Legendary cars that players own. 

    The support team only responds to some requests with reasonable solutions, but every time they are doing this thinking they have done a big favor to players. Many of the "favors" are results of the inconsistency of the game's physical model, or Hutch can't get correct data from a car when releasing into the game, but rarely because the player wants to take advantage of the system.
    I understand your point, but the real root cause of rarity changes is game balance. Before car corrections were happening left and right, rarity changes were executed to balance the game around the addition of more cars. I don’t think that that’s an unfair reason to change rarities. Take other games like overwatch or league of legends for example. There are different metas that are created after each patch surrounding balance changes. Characters/abilities are tweaked based on usage and strength when compared to other characters/abilities. Back to Top Drives, take the Renault DeZir for example. Back when it was RQ18 it was an absolute monster for the RQ. You could get them pretty easily, it was easy to upgrade, and it punched far above its weight. Bumping it up to ultra rare was a necessary rarity change in my opinion - it was too strong to be considered a super rare because it outclassed all the others. 

    Yes, we have been seeing more rarity changes due to car corrections recently, but I’d argue that that’s also because more car corrections are being made. I agree that it feels like more and more corrections are necessary as Hutch continues to vomit cars into the game in pursuit/maintenance of the record for most cars in a video game. But I also understand their side of things and can cut them some slack. As players, we continually thirst for more content, more variety. Hutch adds more cars to appeal to that desire. Given my limited understanding of the car world (I’m not an IRL car buff like a lot of you guys), I understand that it might be difficult to obtain real life data on some of the more obscure or rare models out there - not to mention all the potential factors that influence test results. 

    Do I feel for @O_VER not being able to upgrade his ascending epics? Of course. I’ve been on the receiving end of that before (Cayenne GTS as @HeissRod mentioned), but luckily I was able to see the cars that I had were moving up used the last of my UR food and a good chunk of gold to get them upgraded in time. 

    But I can also understand the difficult place Hutch is put in when we’re banging on their door for more content. I think I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but I’d be all for putting off the new car additions, getting the existing ones right and ironing out bugs. But I also understand it’s hard to sell packs filled with the same old cars. Then again, given how desirable prize cars are, I can imagine they’d have no trouble driving pack sales using existing manufacturers if there was a good prize car up for grabs
    For games like Overwatch or League of Legends, those games focus more on the player's skills rather than the strengths of a character. With a nerf of one character, a player can always find another character fits their style to be competitive. In this game, the better the car wins, you can't control it. The "Meta" concept only works for those skill-based games, but not on asset-based games like Top Drives.

    Those games have rather large team, and only release one character per major update and are able to manage the game balance. I think Hutch has released way too many new cars in one patch recently, which makes game balance exponentially harder to control with a considerably small team. 

    I don't think players complained about game balance as much as the problems caused by the efforts changing the balance. Not only buff/nerf a car but also weak the physical model. 

    I can also understand the challenges Hutch has, but the lack of management and attitude to players never help the community to empathize.
    Fair point about the large team adding one character vs. small team adding lots of cars. Also a fair point about them being skill-based games. 

    I think the lack of complaints about game balance can be attributed to the imbalances favoring the player over Hutch. What player would get an RQ18 DeZir and go “Damn, this isn’t balanced, let me just fuse it away”. It’s easy to look the over way for things like that that are in our favor. From Hutch’s point of view though, I can see them thinking “Oh sh!t, this new RQ18 wipes the floor with half of the URs that have been in the game since launch!”. 

    I agree that it gets harder to empathize with them when the communication feels like it’s few and far between. That surprise Valentine’s Day event for the epic Bentley prize car was cool, and we just came off an event with some really generous prizes. But I too miss the days when it felt like Tim was one of us, chatting up the forum what seemed like every day...
  • S3XYS3XY Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭
    S3XY said:
    S3XY said:
    HeissRod said:

    2) I understand your point about cars moving in rarity and different players having to upgrade them with different rarities of cars.  It sucks.  I pulled the Cayenne GTS right after it moved to a Legendary.  I realize that I will probably never upgrade it, even though it has been instrumental in a few events.  However, may I offer a counterpoint?  What about cars that move down in rarity?  Should players be forced to use epics to upgrade a car that is now an epic? (example: SLS Roadster)  I think the problem goes both ways.
    The root cause for these rarity changes is that Hutch fails to get correct data from a car when releasing into the game. I fully respect the effort our community is contributing to the car correction, but this should be Hutch's job and they should reward this community by helping them. The reasonable solution I can think of is to refund player 15 epic food and collect 15 UR food. This can be done by transferring tunes between other Epic/Legendary cars that players own. 

    The support team only responds to some requests with reasonable solutions, but every time they are doing this thinking they have done a big favor to players. Many of the "favors" are results of the inconsistency of the game's physical model, or Hutch can't get correct data from a car when releasing into the game, but rarely because the player wants to take advantage of the system.
    I understand your point, but the real root cause of rarity changes is game balance. Before car corrections were happening left and right, rarity changes were executed to balance the game around the addition of more cars. I don’t think that that’s an unfair reason to change rarities. Take other games like overwatch or league of legends for example. There are different metas that are created after each patch surrounding balance changes. Characters/abilities are tweaked based on usage and strength when compared to other characters/abilities. Back to Top Drives, take the Renault DeZir for example. Back when it was RQ18 it was an absolute monster for the RQ. You could get them pretty easily, it was easy to upgrade, and it punched far above its weight. Bumping it up to ultra rare was a necessary rarity change in my opinion - it was too strong to be considered a super rare because it outclassed all the others. 

    Yes, we have been seeing more rarity changes due to car corrections recently, but I’d argue that that’s also because more car corrections are being made. I agree that it feels like more and more corrections are necessary as Hutch continues to vomit cars into the game in pursuit/maintenance of the record for most cars in a video game. But I also understand their side of things and can cut them some slack. As players, we continually thirst for more content, more variety. Hutch adds more cars to appeal to that desire. Given my limited understanding of the car world (I’m not an IRL car buff like a lot of you guys), I understand that it might be difficult to obtain real life data on some of the more obscure or rare models out there - not to mention all the potential factors that influence test results. 

    Do I feel for @O_VER not being able to upgrade his ascending epics? Of course. I’ve been on the receiving end of that before (Cayenne GTS as @HeissRod mentioned), but luckily I was able to see the cars that I had were moving up used the last of my UR food and a good chunk of gold to get them upgraded in time. 

    But I can also understand the difficult place Hutch is put in when we’re banging on their door for more content. I think I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but I’d be all for putting off the new car additions, getting the existing ones right and ironing out bugs. But I also understand it’s hard to sell packs filled with the same old cars. Then again, given how desirable prize cars are, I can imagine they’d have no trouble driving pack sales using existing manufacturers if there was a good prize car up for grabs
    For games like Overwatch or League of Legends, those games focus more on the player's skills rather than the strengths of a character. With a nerf of one character, a player can always find another character fits their style to be competitive. In this game, the better the car wins, you can't control it. The "Meta" concept only works for those skill-based games, but not on asset-based games like Top Drives.

    Those games have rather large team, and only release one character per major update and are able to manage the game balance. I think Hutch has released way too many new cars in one patch recently, which makes game balance exponentially harder to control with a considerably small team. 

    I don't think players complained about game balance as much as the problems caused by the efforts changing the balance. Not only buff/nerf a car but also weak the physical model. 

    I can also understand the challenges Hutch has, but the lack of management and attitude to players never help the community to empathize.
    Fair point about the large team adding one character vs. small team adding lots of cars. Also a fair point about them being skill-based games. 

    I think the lack of complaints about game balance can be attributed to the imbalances favoring the player over Hutch. What player would get an RQ18 DeZir and go “Damn, this isn’t balanced, let me just fuse it away”. It’s easy to look the over way for things like that that are in our favor. From Hutch’s point of view though, I can see them thinking “Oh sh!t, this new RQ18 wipes the floor with half of the URs that have been in the game since launch!”. 

    I agree that it gets harder to empathize with them when the communication feels like it’s few and far between. That surprise Valentine’s Day event for the epic Bentley prize car was cool, and we just came off an event with some really generous prizes. But I too miss the days when it felt like Tim was one of us, chatting up the forum what seemed like every day...
    I totally agree with all what you said here, especially about the Tim part, as my main point was really about they should be clear about their capability, manage the scope and proactively communicate with us. 
  • SSVSSV Posts: 93 ✭✭✭

    I had an RQ26 Aston that went to RQ27 before I could max it because of an auto-update. Seeing posts from people both here and on the IN-Game Forum showing off a newly maxed legendary that they essentially got for nothing was a bit of a kick in the guts to be honest.

    Comments along the lines of “it’s your fault because you upgraded the game” are actually pretty poor.

    I’ll suck it up and move on, because I’ve had Hutch errors in the past go in my favour, but these unnecessary frustrations can really start to add up in a negative way...

  • goshkogoshko Posts: 122 ✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    goshko said:
    4) Car corrections usually come with major updates, but this time they came out of the blue. Why?
    First people complain that Hutch never does car corrections.  Now you're going to complain about having them happen?  Get outta here with that.
    Do not twist my words. Do you agree with rarity changes in the middle of tri-series for possibly the best car in game?
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    goshko said:
    HeissRod said:
    goshko said:
    4) Car corrections usually come with major updates, but this time they came out of the blue. Why?
    First people complain that Hutch never does car corrections.  Now you're going to complain about having them happen?  Get outta here with that.
    Do not twist my words. Do you agree with rarity changes in the middle of tri-series for possibly the best car in game?
    Then mention that.  Your complaint reads as though you're complaining they happened at all.  Nothing was twisted, because you didn't provide enough information, if that was your point.
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19
    Ruvla said:
    IMHO, whenever car goes up or down, car should be reset to default, gold and fuse refunded back to player and after that player decide how to proceed. At least this is fair solution.
    There can be a downside to this solution.  Consider that a long-term player has something maxed, which then changes in rarity on a release of new cars in the game.  That player now has 15 free fuses to spend on cars just released into the game, giving them an edge over others, from a car that would not have helped them in the new update.  I'm not arguing against this idea, but rather giving some additional things to think about.
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19
    lol....I see someone is having fun with the disagrees, even disagreeing with something I wasn't arguing against.

    Maybe I can get a disagree for this as well?!  Trifecta!
  • MoogMoog Posts: 458 ✭✭✭✭
    I got very lucky and two of the epics I had moved to legendary and I was able to max one and nearly max the other before the forced update. Without these I would not have won the Chiron sport.

    It was mentioned above that people who pull one of these new legendary cars would feel bad. One of my cars which changed was the Range Rover Sport SVR. It had perf tyres and was pretty much useless as an epic. Now, with All Surface tyres, it's a great car, if you pulled it as a Legendary, it's still useful as it's changed so much from what it was. Obvs, there is the issue that a bunch of people maxed them easily.

    One solution is to scrap the way in which we upgrade cars. Instead of needing to use the same or 1 lower tier to use as food, it could be that you must use RQ-4 or something. So for upgrading an RQ20 car, you need to use cars of RQ16-20 as food. This would make cars dynamically upgradable. The big legendary cars will be tough to upgrade, yet the lesser ones easier. It would make more usable cars in the game rather than the same old ones.
  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    Hmm, are post getting deleted now without any trace or warning?
    You know this is one of the reasons this forum is dying.
    We can't have negative things said about Hutch here, you know that.
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