Thoughts on RQ Rescaling

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Comments

  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m working on the balancing of the RQ of cars, and just thought I’d lay out some of the thought processes of checking the ratio between the old and new system, and some other vaguely connected thoughts. This may not be particularly focused and might just be insider baseball, but I’m writing it to help articulate some of my thinking, so I may as well share it.


    This is great Robin, really appreciate the sharing of your thoughts. It gives us a great platform for the community to share their thoughts too, evidenced by this healthy discussion.

    I've read all the posts and I agree with most. Fusing system should be revamped in due course, though I understand why you don't want to change too much at once. I like @43MK4 's idea, although I dare say a simpler system just utilising 3 cars to make up an RQ score would be easier to understand for the casual player. wanna upgrade a RQ80 car? just throw in 3 cars of total RQ value of (?180?). Nobody needs to remember the calculation system, they just go to the car they want to upgrade, it tells them the score cost, they slot in 3 cars. 

    @adms87 I didn't give you a disagree cos you'd had enough to make the point already. I can't speak for others but I suspect the reason you got so many was because your post didn't address the issue behind this rescaling. It is that low RQ cars in each band don't get used. 

    If you simply received more fuse materials from an increase in drop-rates you'd still put them into your high RQ cars first in each band. There would be more maxed cars, but no more variety. We are trying to address the variety of cars used in the game, first by having a broader width of RQ limits to allow proper separation of cars by strength. Hopefully a fusing system change in the future allows us to max any car without the opportunity cost of having used the same value of our garage to max a stronger car instead. 



  • adms87adms87 Posts: 426 ✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:

    I’m working on the balancing of the RQ of cars, and just thought I’d lay out some of the thought processes of checking the ratio between the old and new system, and some other vaguely connected thoughts. This may not be particularly focused and might just be insider baseball, but I’m writing it to help articulate some of my thinking, so I may as well share it.


    @adms87 I didn't give you a disagree cos you'd had enough to make the point already. I can't speak for others but I suspect the reason you got so many was because your post didn't address the issue behind this rescaling. It is that low RQ cars in each band don't get used. 

    If you simply received more fuse materials from an increase in drop-rates you'd still put them into your high RQ cars first in each band. There would be more maxed cars, but no more variety. We are trying to address the variety of cars used in the game, first by having a broader width of RQ limits to allow proper separation of cars by strength. 



    I know that in my first comment I wast bit vague, but I just feel disappointed with this game and I don't really feel that all this rescaling will change anything in end. The only thing I can think of is to limit the number of Legendary cars. Theres already 236 S cars and I am sure theres more to come. The game is relying even more in luck and spending money rather than strategy. You can force people to use the rq 27 cars by broading the scale and putting tight rq limits but then those with rq 30 cars will complain that they never use them. Also even if you put 2 epics and 1 ultra to fuse an rq 27 I would rather use that ultra to fuse an rq 26 because than again I still have plenty of Rq26 that need upgrading...

    If you create more tiers like someone suggested it will be even harder to upgrade S cars...

    Sorry I dont have much time to make a more explanatory comment thant this. I am sure theres a lot of more ideas and mine is simply get higher drop rates so I can fully upgrade at least 50% of my legendary cars.
  • RWareRWare Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fastest ever time to smash that like button on Robin's post.

    That was some time to read (entire topic to here) and was absolutely worth it. THIS is the stuff I remember the forum being golden for. Proper on-the-table discussions where it was clear that community insight was valued and showcased the passion from the devs. I can only emplore it.

    On to the topic at hand, I think it's vital that the RQ rescale and any further new ideas on fusing changes be seperate. Change little, and often. I think it will take a few days maybe a week or two for the dust to settle when applying the new scale to event. (The first time you make an RQ367 hand will be wild)

    I am extremely happy that it's been considered for cars to move RQ without rarities. This is amplified by the fact we're considering true specialists such as the ZR2 / Superlight. (Regardless of how I have missed out/benefited on RQ changes, it's the fairest approach to all)

    I think the biggest thing for me is "What do we do with low RQ Legends?" such as the Exige Robin mentioned, and others that sit at RQ80/RQ81 - sure, they won't be getting upgraded as fast as your new shiny RQ97 Rocket, but I think the value now lies in the fact you can field your RQ81 Lotus versus your opponents RQ100 Chiron Sport, and have 19RQ left to play with, rather than what you currently have spare.....which is 3RQ

    Wether this actually makes a big difference when it's 5 x 5 cars, remains to be seen. In some events it will, in a 5 x Drag, no it won't. What's important here is that the rescale shouldn't be the one fix - but part of the engine backed up by events, restrictions, track selections etc etc but I could go on and on about that. Enough from me - keep the info coming Hutch.
  • return1return1 Posts: 32
    adms87 said:
    Guys, the problem is easily solved if they increase drop rates!!!! I would even consider spending more money in this game if had more chances to win a legendary. I mean I think I have more chances to win the lottery than a Bugatti Chiron in this game from a normal carbon fiber. This is just ridiculous...


    You know one thing the game cannot change is drop rate/pack price/gold price. The game is supported to a large extent by a squad of spenders who, I would guess, see their spending as investments. If any of those changes, it is either inflation which is pure robbery from those people by decreasing price/increasing drop rate, or give old players too much unfair disadvantage and not welcoming new players.
    let’s say I have dropped 10K for this update. If you increase drop rate by 25%, which means tomorrow another guy can spend 8K to reach the same garage strength. It is a robbery of 2K and the bigger the investment, the more it hurts and why hutch would want to drive those people away?
    A bit deviation from this topic. That is a mimic of why social reforms usually does more harm than benefit if not done perfectly.
  • return1return1 Posts: 32
    I think the rq rescaling is moving to a right direction and I sincerely hope rarity is changed as little as possible after the rq rescaling. Every change made is a step to more inflation as people would exploit it. Though a couple promotion is fine as a reward to loyalty of this game.
    I don’t think fuse mat requirement should be changed. As a player who has maxed a few niche rq23 A cars, even a couple rq27 S car. I have to say maxing those give quite some advantage to me on certain rq/track combination. It is a big price to pay for the winning but just like in real life, different people have different willingness to pay for what they get and that makes this game diverse and fun. Now that it is proposed to widen the band of the top end, I think it is rewarding those lower rq in each rarity already. We should see how this happen before implement further changes such as fusing requirements later, because that if done wrong, can harm the game unprecedentedly.
  • AvengedAvenged Posts: 520 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4
    HeissRod said:
    What is pyramid tiering?
    Less on top, more below. Sorry I don't know if that's a proper term. Just came to mind.

    Basic example:

    A = RQ31 to RQ35
    B = RQ21 to RQ30
    C = RQ1 to RQ20

    Doing this means that if you beat the odds and pull the rarest tier, it will be a car near the top of the performance rankings and worth your trouble to upgrade. Since the upgrade system is tied to the car's performance rating, the super-hard-to-upgrade cars should be worth their trouble.
  • adms87adms87 Posts: 426 ✭✭✭
    return1 said:
    adms87 said:
    Guys, the problem is easily solved if they increase drop rates!!!! I would even consider spending more money in this game if had more chances to win a legendary. I mean I think I have more chances to win the lottery than a Bugatti Chiron in this game from a normal carbon fiber. This is just ridiculous...


    You know one thing the game cannot change is drop rate/pack price/gold price. The game is supported to a large extent by a squad of spenders who, I would guess, see their spending as investments. If any of those changes, it is either inflation which is pure robbery from those people by decreasing price/increasing drop rate, or give old players too much unfair disadvantage and not welcoming new players.
    let’s say I have dropped 10K for this update. If you increase drop rate by 25%, which means tomorrow another guy can spend 8K to reach the same garage strength. It is a robbery of 2K and the bigger the investment, the more it hurts and why hutch would want to drive those people away?
    A bit deviation from this topic. That is a mimic of why social reforms usually does more harm than benefit if not done perfectly.
    This is a game, and games are supposed to be fun and not be called investments because the only return you have is it, fun. Increasing drop rates is going to be equal for everybody. Those high spenders will still have advantage, because they will still have more cars, more slots, more fuses, or even more duplicates, because of the fact that they will still be spending more money than the others. The only risk is that they will probably get bored sooner if they get all the cars from the game, but thats what prize cars and new cars are for.

    As I said in my first comment, if I knew that spending money would give higher chances to have good cars I would spend more money than I do. And I believe this would happen with many other people too. Right now it just frustrated to put 10 euros from now and then in the game and dont getting anything higher than a ultra rare. I dont live in a rich country sorry.

    Just to be a little bit more on topic, I still think rescalling is a good idea and will bring more fun to the game. Just dont think it will change what bothers me right now with this game and some of the problems that were addressed in this topic.
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    adms87 said:
    This is a game, and games are supposed to be fun and not be called investments because the only return you have is it, fun. 
    You know, I get the feeling that some people always forget about exactly that in some discussions.
  • MoogMoog Posts: 481 ✭✭✭✭
    i doubt anyone will make car that much better than Chiron Sport for it to be worth 2rq more
    What about if they simply added more race cars such as the 919 Evo, F1 cars (old or new). Maybe the likes of the Tuatara or Venom F5 which have oodles of power but can  also turn a corner too and has significantly less weight.
    Even a modern day rally cross car could have a monster RQ as it would have offroad tyres, 600bhp, 0-60 in 2 sec. Consider how the current Audi S1 is RQ30 due to it's versatility, a car 30 years newer would have an astronomical RQ.
  • TopDrives40778TopDrives40778 Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Moog said:
    i doubt anyone will make car that much better than Chiron Sport for it to be worth 2rq more
    What about if they simply added more race cars such as the 919 Evo, F1 cars (old or new). Maybe the likes of the Tuatara or Venom F5 which have oodles of power but can  also turn a corner too and has significantly less weight.
    Even a modern day rally cross car could have a monster RQ as it would have offroad tyres, 600bhp, 0-60 in 2 sec. Consider how the current Audi S1 is RQ30 due to it's versatility, a car 30 years newer would have an astronomical RQ.
    You forget that off road tires will suffer on wet asphalt and modern day rally cross cars have low top speeds (both of these things will effect the RQ negatively, especially with the new RQ range)
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭
    adms87 said:
    RobGripes said:

    I’m working on the balancing of the RQ of cars, and just thought I’d lay out some of the thought processes of checking the ratio between the old and new system, and some other vaguely connected thoughts. This may not be particularly focused and might just be insider baseball, but I’m writing it to help articulate some of my thinking, so I may as well share it.


    @adms87 I didn't give you a disagree cos you'd had enough to make the point already. I can't speak for others but I suspect the reason you got so many was because your post didn't address the issue behind this rescaling. It is that low RQ cars in each band don't get used. 

    If you simply received more fuse materials from an increase in drop-rates you'd still put them into your high RQ cars first in each band. There would be more maxed cars, but no more variety. We are trying to address the variety of cars used in the game, first by having a broader width of RQ limits to allow proper separation of cars by strength. 



    I know that in my first comment I wast bit vague, but I just feel disappointed with this game and I don't really feel that all this rescaling will change anything in end. The only thing I can think of is to limit the number of Legendary cars. Theres already 236 S cars and I am sure theres more to come. The game is relying even more in luck and spending money rather than strategy. You can force people to use the rq 27 cars by broading the scale and putting tight rq limits but then those with rq 30 cars will complain that they never use them. Also even if you put 2 epics and 1 ultra to fuse an rq 27 I would rather use that ultra to fuse an rq 26 because than again I still have plenty of Rq26 that need upgrading...

    If you create more tiers like someone suggested it will be even harder to upgrade S cars...

    Sorry I dont have much time to make a more explanatory comment thant this. I am sure theres a lot of more ideas and mine is simply get higher drop rates so I can fully upgrade at least 50% of my legendary cars.

    I'm sure that a lot of people including myself agree with you that drop rates should in fact be higher. Then a gain, a lot of people won't agree, because they have already paid the higher price to achieve their garages and it would be unfair on them to allow others to catch up easier. There is no way to achieve higher drop rates short of everyone packing up and leaving if Hutch doesn't change. 

    Let's face it though, that won't happen so drop rates are here to stay. 

    In case you missed it, there was a post a long time ago, probably by Robin (Though I am unsure), that explained very reasonably why the drop rates give out fewer higher tier cars proportionately. It's so that when you receive your epics, you need to decide strategically which S cars to fuse up. This trickles down to Epics too, and much less so UR (Although after 2.5 years I am still missing a lot of UR).

    This system makes sense. It means that people won't simply have all of the same cars in their garages. The RQ rebalance takes the variety further, and hopefully a fusing system overhaul helps the game reach the golden land of having all the cars prove useful over the course of a players' TD life. I got my fingers crossed.
  • MrpiratepeteMrpiratepete Posts: 968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Moog said:
    What about if they simply added more race cars such as the 919 Evo, F1 cars (old or new). Maybe the likes of the Tuatara or Venom F5 which have oodles of power but can  also turn a corner too and has significantly less weight.
    Even a modern day rally cross car could have a monster RQ as it would have offroad tyres, 600bhp, 0-60 in 2 sec. Consider how the current Audi S1 is RQ30 due to it's versatility, a car 30 years newer would have an astronomical RQ.
    Hey, we already have the DKR and look how good it is 😂
  • return1return1 Posts: 32
    adms87 said:
    return1 said:
    adms87 said:
    Guys, the problem is easily solved if they increase drop rates!!!! I would even consider spending more money in this game if had more chances to win a legendary. I mean I think I have more chances to win the lottery than a Bugatti Chiron in this game from a normal carbon fiber. This is just ridiculous...


    You know one thing the game cannot change is drop rate/pack price/gold price. The game is supported to a large extent by a squad of spenders who, I would guess, see their spending as investments. If any of those changes, it is either inflation which is pure robbery from those people by decreasing price/increasing drop rate, or give old players too much unfair disadvantage and not welcoming new players.
    let’s say I have dropped 10K for this update. If you increase drop rate by 25%, which means tomorrow another guy can spend 8K to reach the same garage strength. It is a robbery of 2K and the bigger the investment, the more it hurts and why hutch would want to drive those people away?
    A bit deviation from this topic. That is a mimic of why social reforms usually does more harm than benefit if not done perfectly.
    This is a game, and games are supposed to be fun and not be called investments because the only return you have is it, fun. Increasing drop rates is going to be equal for everybody. Those high spenders will still have advantage, because they will still have more cars, more slots, more fuses, or even more duplicates, because of the fact that they will still be spending more money than the others. The only risk is that they will probably get bored sooner if they get all the cars from the game, but thats what prize cars and new cars are for.

    As I said in my first comment, if I knew that spending money would give higher chances to have good cars I would spend more money than I do. And I believe this would happen with many other people too. Right now it just frustrated to put 10 euros from now and then in the game and dont getting anything higher than a ultra rare. I dont live in a rich country sorry.

    Just to be a little bit more on topic, I still think rescalling is a good idea and will bring more fun to the game. Just dont think it will change what bothers me right now with this game and some of the problems that were addressed in this topic.
    I totally get your view, but fun is not a subjective word. I know some people including me have fun by taking things seriously, learning the system and winning competition. I think for those who drops some serious money into this game, they would feel this way more or less. Increasing drop rate is not going to be equal when I just spent a ton this month hoping to have more return in the future. As this game gets a larger player base, people will only get more serious.
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    RWare said:

    That was some time to read (entire topic to here) and was absolutely worth it. THIS is the stuff I remember the forum being golden for. Proper on-the-table discussions where it was clear that community insight was valued and showcased the passion from the devs. I can only emplore it.


    Yes, this is it, I couldn't agree more.

    A lot of people have been turned away due to the negativity on the forum over the past year or so, but it came hand-in-hand with the change of communication strategy Hutch employed after what was a brilliant start. Less communication, and with some poor decisions along the way was bound to invoke some backlash. 

    Hopefully, this is the turning point and we can have more threads like this. No aggro, just healthy discussion about the pros and cons of ideas being put forward. Ideas by Hutch and the community. Threads from Hutch don't always need to be so long of course. The length reflected the significance of this change, but short snippets in the future will always be appreciated.
  • MoogMoog Posts: 481 ✭✭✭✭
    Moog said:
    You forget that off road tires will suffer on wet asphalt and modern day rally cross cars have low top speeds (both of these things will effect the RQ negatively, especially with the new RQ range)
    True, but that Audi is still RQ30 right, so if it only gets low RQ90s under the new system, you have to think what a modern rally cross car would get. Group B cars were fast back in the day, but modern WRC cars with half their power are faster today.
    Without talking specifics, race cars in general are crazy fast compared to road cars, even extreme ones. Veyron around the 'ring time is a joke. 
  • StrixStrix Posts: 99 ✭✭✭
    Increased RQ range won't change much for legendaries unless the policy behind RQ limited events changes as well. How often do you chose a subpar legendary in an event now, in order to be able to use one or two more RQ on a low tier car? I can't think of a single time. If you're going to use legendaries, you pick the best one(s) and compensate by picking the best possible low RQ car with whatever RQ you have left over.

    I'm sure increased RQ range is fine, but it doesn't help with the fact that getting a poor legendary feels like a disaster, and is just far, far worse than getting a good epic. I'd glady trade 5 of my legendaries for 1 Superlight! There are several interesting soultions in this thread, but I think most of them are too complex.

    My suggestion: Forget rarity completely when dealing with fuses. Replace it with one simple rule: Fuse material can not be more than 4 RQ below the car you intend to upgrade. This way, an RQ27 legendary can be fused with RQ23 and above. RQ29 can be fused with RQ25 and above. This is a good solution for three reasons:
    • It's easy to understand, and probably fairly easy to implement as well.
    • It will be progressively more expensive to upgrade cars through the RQ range.
    • This also means that the best car you can ever upgrade with that RQ23 food is an RQ27, which makes it quite tempting to actually do it! As cars of low RQ seems to be more common than higher RQ cars (within same rarity), this should lead to upgraded low-RQ cars becoming more commonly used and also more competitive.
    I used the old RQ values for this example, but it could obviously be scaled for the new RQ values as well.
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