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Late join "fixed"

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  • funnicfunnic Posts: 2
    edited May 12
    What i think it could be a good solution for hutch to counter late join is a simple calculation of the median value of all the brackets and add the late joiners on the brackets who have higher values (median > 1 victory or more)

    why?

    late joiners hope to arrive in a low brackets, so with a simple victory or less they could have the highest rewards. If they systematically arrive in higher brackets with the player's median score superior than a victory or more they would never win high prices, so they will no try this "technic" anymore and the game will be fair for eveyone.

    technically it could be quite simple to implement it without huge calculations and don't take too much resources from the servers

    @Hutch_Tim what do you think about this  idea?

    Post edited by funnic on
  • evilprofesseurevilprofesseur Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see how closing the admission early fixes the problem. You could still get the lucky underfilled/freshly generated bracket just before the deadline. There would be more of a fight inside it, so 5-0 would not be as meaningful but what people are trying to get is a bracket with very few people. Weak hands can still be successful there
  • REALAISREALAIS Posts: 904 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12
    Agree.
    I will repeat again, problem is not with latejoin, problem is underfilled brackets. Many of those are underfilled from even first day. That is main issue.
    Pushing back latejoining by x hours will not achieve nothing better than it is now.
    Hutch just need to figure out why it happens and fix it. Not to waste time to implement some difficult steps to limit latejoin which is not main issue, that many if you are suggesting.

    We have problem with "A". Lets implement new "B" to maybe counter "A", rather to figure out "A". That is what I see from most of your posts here.

  • 0171801718 Posts: 502 ✭✭✭
    01718 said:
    It could be like clubs though, no new brackets -t4 hours, the last bracket will fill with the late joiners but with time to play.

    It might fill with 20 late joiners, or 200 or 499, there would be a chance to gamble. For Servers with few brackets (I think we had Events with just 4) the chance to get into the "last" bracket would be quite easy to calculate.
    We can be ok with this, I'm just trying to think this through.
    @hifichris suggestion would be a different solution theoretically preventing brackets from finishing with less than 500 players.

    and why this have to do with the top 10? I don't understand why you bring this up?
    the expansion of t1 shouldn't be related with the bracket problem imo.
    Hutch expanded Tier 1 from 8 to 10 places with the overfilling feature, IIRC. I would say it is likely they return to 8 if they abolish overfilling, especially if Hutch would just "roll back the code" as it has been suggestion in this topic.


    The expansion of t1 was about competitiveness of the brackets not about overfill they just introduced together.
    Roll back its not really a delete code situation, is a new implementation.
    Brackets shouldn't overfill without prize board adjustments, its not the same if you are in an 600 brackets with someone that is in a normal one, but that is too complicate.
    So imo the best solution is like clubs, -t4 hours no new brackets, no overfill, an indicator how many spots are open until the event ends and none will gamble anymore when your first time that you will try this you will get a nice msg saying "sorry my friend too late, next time"

    on the other hand gambling is in the nature of this game, maybe that's why we are having this things. 
    The competitiveness rises with more players in a bracket. That's why Hutch adjusted the T1 range and that's why we are looking at overfill-proportions to criticize that the expansion of Tiers was not good enough.

    Or we just f*** make a Deadline 3-4 hours prior to the end. Why is it so hard? I'm honestly sick of this topic. We are wasting so many resources and so much time for such a simple and easy fix...
    Instead everything is made more complicated and backfiring thus generating countless rant threads every final.
    By setting a deadline we will get a "join close to the deadline"-exploit. There will be a "last" bracket with fewer players in it and it will be a tactic to manage to land in this last bracket and probably have a better chance of obtaining higher Tiers. There is a gambling component in this strategy as the last bracket may have every count from 1 to 500 once the deadline hits. 

    I don't know how many brackets there are on the popular servers, but I have read on this very forum, that some Regions only create like 4 brackets. It will be very easy to find out what to do to get into the last bracket created before the deadline hits. Of course, there is more time to order the hands by strength in this last bracket, but chances are much higher to have less competition there. (It will also be easier to join this last bracket with groups of friends to create Tier1-cartels).

    Overfilling - if working correctly - prevents "last" brackets. However, Hutch would have to fix the "brackets stops filling up" problem for this (and I would like to see dynamic Tier ranges, like the Top 2% get the T1 prize and if the bracket overfills from 500 to 600 we would get 12 instead of 10 T1 spots)

    I would be alright with both solutions. What I want is to be clear of the consequences if anything changes.

  • funnicfunnic Posts: 2
    REALAIS said:
    Agree.
    I will repeat again, problem is not with latejoin, problem is underfilled brackets. Many of those are underfilled from even first day. That is main issue.
    Pushing back latejoining by x hours will not achieve nothing better than it is now.
    Hutch just need to figure out why it happens and fix it. Not to waste time to implement some difficult steps to limit latejoin which is not main issue, that many if you are suggesting.

    We have problem with "A". Lets implement new "B" to maybe counter "A", rather to figure out "A". That is what I see from most of your posts here.


    i don't think that the problem is only underfilled brackets maybe it's one of the problem but players who try to win a high price with joining at the last minit is the major problem, if you put in place a system who make them loose every time, they won't try it anymore and problem is solve. But i agree underfilled brackets has to be fixed too
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12
    place players into finals brackets from the beginning. they enter whenever they feel like it. 

    tickets for finals are part of all tier prizes in the prelims. all finals players are then known and expected.

    with that data, the correct number of brackets, all opened from the beginning are created.

    Pros - no server issues, merit based positions at the end. late-joining has zero benefit except for casual players who want to play a little and catch up near the end

    cons - hard for teamwork.


    Post edited by RobGripes on
  • TD23088TD23088 Posts: 21 ✭✭
    Hello All, long time reader but never registered to comment. 
    But this issue, and the protectionism of weaker hands, has bugged me for a long time although I think its simple to fix. 

    Stop taking points away for a loss, just add points to a win.  It seems pretty simple that if you are an early entry into a bracket it will be hard for late joiners to catch up if you don't lose points on a loss and every entry starts at zero.  It seems in many big events the 10th place is around 300-400 points toward the end of the last day.  That's pretty easy to make up as a late joiner with a solid hand and a few more tickets.  If you didn't take away points for a loss and only added them for a win the better hands would progress upward.  It's the same as the season points leader in a real racing season.  You should be able to play against the 10 hands above you and the 10 hands below you.  For beating the hand 10 places ahead of you, you get 100 points for the hand 9 places ahead you get 90 points and so on down the line.  You can accumulate points quickly but only if your hand is good enough to beat those above you.  Once you get to the top the scale shifts with you.  The top player only gets 50 points for beating the second place hand, 40 for the third and so on.  After a day or so of play the best hands will align themselves in order.  You could raise yourself in the ranks with a less superior hand but you'll have to do it with a lot of tickets at half the points rate of a better hand.

    This also helps where the server only lets in a few players.  All the players would have a significant amount of points built up to protect against late joiners.

    This also helps against protectionism.  Now you can't sit at the bottom at 9th or 10th and play defense.  If there is a better hand on the rise and it can go against 10 hands ahead and earn 100 point at a time.  No one would be able to press anyone down they can just rise themselves.

    In short, you would have to play to win not just pay to win.

    Thanks for your time, I hope I provided some value to the forum.
  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You know what, Hutch it. I was hoping for a fair game for all. Till then friends of friends will get easy packs.

  • TD42792TD42792 Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    1) the most important step is to stop brackets getting stuck with just a few players for days.
    2) announce a deadline for every event (eg. 3 hours before the end), and stop creating new brackets after that.
    3) entry will still be allowed after the deadline, but only until all existing brackets are full. Stop this overfilling nonsense, it's just not fair.
    Yes some might not be able to join in those last hours, but this is something that everyone should be aware of: after the deadline, there's no guarantee that you can join. Use these last few hours to even out the existing brackets as much as possible, by adding players who join after the deadline to the bracket with the less players.
    Simple as that, as I see it.
    Well, this makes sense and would be the right, logical and easy solution.

    Why hasnt Hutch already put such a system in place? Let me hazard a guess: late joiners represent 20% of players, they spend gold (ie money in many cases) to play 10-15 tickets fast, and make other players also spend gold to play more tickets in the last minutes of frenzy.

    So while Hutch does not want people to join T-5 mn because that blows up the servers, they do want people to join in the last hours, because these people will spend some and also boost the last hour frenzy spend.

    Yet again. Sad and short-sighted if you ask me. Convoluted fixes with code that Hutch itself does not understand (“we are trying to understand why etc....” YOU created the code!!), instead of providing a reliable stable product will hurt sales more on the medium to long term. This I can guarantee.
  • OzzmanOzzman Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    TD23088 said:
    Stop taking points away for a loss, just add points to a win.
    Wouldn't this greatly benefit ticket spammers?
    Hell yeah it would. Hutch already tried something less drastic by just altering the point ratio of active/passive wins/losses a bit. Even that ended in ticket spam fest as we all remember.
  • TD23088TD23088 Posts: 21 ✭✭
    If you reach a point where you could only beat those below you then ticket spammers would be competing for a diminished returns.  At some point, with a mediocre hand, you would only be able get 10 points per win because you could only beat the person 10 spots below you.  While the person immediatly ahead of the ticket spammer could beat them and get 50 points per hand.  That means they would be paying 5 tickets to equal your 1 win.
  • LittleEnosBurdetteLittleEnosBurdette Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My god there isn’t half some rubbish being posted. It was suggested right at the start, close brackets (like clubs) X hours before event end. Problem solved, no late joins, no overfilled brackets, fair result for all players. 

    Just to pick up on what @Hutch_Tim said though, the chance of a late join success is now 10x less likely to happen, we see evidence every final of 20-30-40 people getting tier1, does that mean that used to be 2-3 hundred were successful before the fix? Something doesn’t add up. 
  • HeissRodHeissRod Posts: 7,448 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We saw this scenario happen, when the previous point system was in effect.  Imagine that you have two friends, who build a hand so that they can each beat each other by moving their cars around.  You only spend your tickets on your friend and vice versa.  Nobody can stop them (because no negative points).
  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My god there isn’t half some rubbish being posted. It was suggested right at the start, close brackets (like clubs) X hours before event end. Problem solved, no late joins, no overfilled brackets, fair result for all players. 

    Just to pick up on what @Hutch_Tim said though, the chance of a late join success is now 10x less likely to happen, we see evidence every final of 20-30-40 people getting tier1, does that mean that used to be 2-3 hundred were successful before the fix? Something doesn’t add up. 
    Maybe the total number of people trying has reduced. The number of prizecars given out undeserved stayed at least the same, or might be even higher now as there are many bugged brackets, not just two EU latejoin ones as before.

  • DrizztSalvatoreDrizztSalvatore Posts: 411 ✭✭✭
    alternative idea.....every event has a 24 hour registration period before it begins.....don't register ..can't play.... then admin can see total number of entries on each server and make the required amount of brackets so they are all of equal number per server... 600 entries 2 brackets of 300......900 entries still 2 brackets but now 450 each.....10000 entries on 1 server 20 brackets of 500........no-one gets an easier bracket on their server than anyone else.....no late join, no closed brackets not accepting entries....al players are in bracket to start with and only start amassing points once they begin to play
  • AndreasSimmerAndreasSimmer Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And how about these people getting their prizecars through sweettalk with support?! Another thing that would be gone with a t-3h ending of creating brackets.


  • 0171801718 Posts: 502 ✭✭✭
    Ozzman said:
    1) the most important step is to stop brackets getting stuck with just a few players for days.
    2) announce a deadline for every event (eg. 3 hours before the end), and stop creating new brackets after that.
    3) entry will still be allowed after the deadline, but only until all existing brackets are full. Stop this overfilling nonsense, it's just not fair.

    I think this is the important part, I like this and it is a great difference from just saying "stop creating brackets four hours before the event ends.


  • xaratsarhsxaratsarhs Posts: 381 ✭✭✭
    01718 said:
    Ozzman said:
    1) the most important step is to stop brackets getting stuck with just a few players for days.
    2) announce a deadline for every event (eg. 3 hours before the end), and stop creating new brackets after that.
    3) entry will still be allowed after the deadline, but only until all existing brackets are full. Stop this overfilling nonsense, it's just not fair.

    I think this is the important part, I like this and it is a great difference from just saying "stop creating brackets four hours before the event ends.


    Sorry if I didn't make it clear, that's exactly what I am also saying , Stop creating new brackets , obviously they will fill the existing ones (like clubs) if all them are full and someone trying to enter "the sorry msg" and to be more transparent to players they can add an indication how many open slots/spots are , like clubs...
  • adms87adms87 Posts: 428 ✭✭✭
    Guys we are all GENIUS! Hutch should hire all of us, or at least gives us free Legendaries as thank you.
  • LittleEnosBurdetteLittleEnosBurdette Posts: 3,143 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I’d love to be able to find out what idiot disagrees with posts without giving a reason. 

    The other simple fix that was put forward was again to use existing code introduced with clubs, you have to race a certain number of times to claim the prize. Race 20 times in a final you can claim it, if not, you can’t, simple. 
  • mauro07mauro07 Posts: 2,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I’d love to be able to find out what idiot disagrees with posts without giving a reason. 

    The other simple fix that was put forward was again to use existing code introduced with clubs, you have to race a certain number of times to claim the prize. Race 20 times in a final you can claim it, if not, you can’t, simple. 

    i'm not the only one that hate this disagree without giving reason! cheers
    and @[email protected]_Tim , i remember a lot of suggestion in the last 18 month to fight late join but Hutch never listen players sugggestions
  • RuvlaRuvla Posts: 156 ✭✭✭
    I think I will get lots of dislikes, but whatever.

    The core things of the game is RELATIVE strong of the hand in the bracket. If you are lucky to get into weak bracket - easy time with even average hand. If you unlucky even with the strong hand to get into say 'whales' bracket - you s..k.

    If you take this as granted, why everyone is upset with late joiners or bugged brackets? What is the difference, someone got prize with weaker hand than yours (and you did not) either for weak bracket, late joining or whatever?

    To some point Tim is right, everyone is in the same boat and can try their luck by late joining or whatever.

    P.S. Not trying to defend hutch, but rather surprised by the hotness of this topic.
  • RuvlaRuvla Posts: 156 ✭✭✭
    You do not like gambling with late join, but you accept gambling with brackets. That is nonsense.

    Why do not you demand equally strong brackets with equal players distribution among them by their strength?

    Again, take away this gambling part - no need to race at all. Let you just choose your hand, and let server play the races to determine the strongest among all players. And let top 8% get the prize car. What can be more fair than that?

    P.S. I do not like that late joining as well, but I just take it as a part of the issues existing in the game. BTW, have anyone here tried late joining recently (past 2 month say)? Was it success (getting prize car with obviously weak hand or with stipud score)?
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