League/Event Matching tiers or fix?

Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
edited May 2018 in General Discussion
So I'm not the only one with this issue, but I'd really like to know from Hutch what is the story with the League or event matching tiers.

The whole point of bringing in the hard floors for trophy counts was to stop smurfing.  So when people collected points, they could only go forward.

No problem at all, that is great and the right solution.

The problem is this.  There appears to be a tier of 0-5000 trophies, 5000-8000, 8000-10,000 then 10,000 to a billion.

It is no longer fun playing in Dailies or even events with a 12K trophy account against guys with 30-70K trophies and garages to match.  At least in the old system, you could smurf to keep yourself in a competitive bracket. now it's just a given that the same 6-8 players win the events.

I imagine that it's set up like this for either one of the three reasons, or possibly all 3:

1) To encourage people to spend money to build up similar garages (I get Hutch needs to be profitable)
2) There are not enough players in that 20K+ league to justify segmenting them out, as in you'd need more server space
3) Creating too many tiers means giving out more prizes, and this is the commodity that Hutch has to encourage people to spend to achieve (again, I get Hutch needs to be profitable)

My concerns on each point is:

1) People can't match the spend of those players, especially in regions where this is literally 100% difference in the cost of gold especially on iOS platform (I know this is an Apple issue, not Hutch gouging, so I get that)
2) I don't know the cost of the server usage, but wouldn't this just be a virtual server instance per tier?
3) Not giving the 20K below players the opportunity to win the prize cars means they eventually just start falling away.  This is a growing group given the hard floor limits now.  It also means the top guys just get stronger and stronger winning CF packs etc, which the lower players need more.

I love this game and a spend a healthy amount (not the same as the big guys, but healthy enough) and I don't want to leave and spend my money elsewhere.  A lot of the recent changes have been bloody great, and my big thing is I love the collecting element, but when I can't do that anymore because the top 8 guys all hog the placings, (and we know that Eric now has his TD2018 profile also taking an extra spot too).  In our bracket (with Jay. RobGripes, Deewood. TGPD etc) we don't have a 'Bugatti' who can help us based on the strength of his garage (and kindness of his heart) in these events.  Heck, all we can do to help each other is just not take wins from each other, we can't beat down these other big players usually.

So this is an open conversation and my thoughts and feedback, that I'd like to keep polite and sensible, as I sincerely want to keep playing, but when I enter dailies just to farm (because I know I can't win), and there's only 4 players in the bracket, the other 3 of them (besides me) with 3-5 maxed Chirons, I literally can't even do that.  Maybe chuck in some Hutch Bots at least for that?

I 100% realise its a fine balance for you guys at Hutch, you need to be profitable to make this great game awesome and keep it running, but if the longer term P2P players who spend that 'mid tier' spending amount start dropping off, you're left with the spending whales, and the F2P guys.  And those spending whales will eventually have maxed out everything and start spending less anyway or get bored and move on, and the next tier of spenders have already left.

You may have data to show otherwise and fair enough, but is that data based on now, or 6 months from now? (I'm coming from this at a business planning angle)

Keen for your thoughts and feedback.

Very sincerely,
Bucks73
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Comments

  • BugattiBugatti Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The problem is with the higher tiers, there is not enough players to fill a bracket
  • BugattiBugatti Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think they need to combine the servers and just make it full random, Couldn't be worse then it is now lol
  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    Bugatti said:
    I think they need to combine the servers and just make it full random, Couldn't be worse then it is now lol
    I suspect that its correct on the not enough 20K+ people to fill the servers, but that is not the fault of the players in the 10-20K bracket.  If you bring in hard floors and stop smurfing, then you have to have a solution to counter this new problem.

    I don't mind the combined servers to make it random as I 100% agree it couldn't be worse than now and would love to end up in a league with you just knowing you'd be happy to help a forum guy out. I think the issue is that the server delays and drop outs would increase like the bad old days.

    I'm sure this topic is on their radar and if they could just throw me a bone to say that they have a solution coming in the next month or so that would keep me hanging in there!
  • th1318th1318 Posts: 31
    I think there are a few current games out there that Hutch, or you fellow forumers, could look at for examples of other well done trophy/tiering systems.

    1. Golf Clash
    They have a trophy count and a tier system that allows you to move up , down, or stay in the same tier every week. At the end of each week, the top and bottom of 15-20% of the people move, and the rest stay the same spot. Think this could work well as it is less reliant on actual trophies and how you do against the system, and since it is weekly, it wont be as instant as smurfing was in the past.

    2. Tap Sports Baseball
    They have a tier system that only allows you to move up. Isn't derived from actual trophies, just how much you win in single player modes. But this allows you to match to people either in the same tier or a few tiers around you. This allows for brackets to change more often resulting in different competition. However, this game relies heavily on club playing, so might not be a good direct comparison

    3. Clash Royale
    They have a free trophy system that allows you to go up or down based on the outcome of the match. Additionally there is a "max" trophy limit too. Once you pass that limit, you gain legendary trophies for that "season" and keep battling up for rewards. Then at the end of each season, the legendary trophies are removed and you start at the "max" amount again and battle back up. However, this game relies a lot on human input of placing cards at the right time/place and strategy and isn't as cut and dry of someone having a better hand

    While none of these games you can make a direct translation, I think some of these ideas might be useful to look at and hopefully start some conversations to help improve the game. However, the main difference that all of these games do have is a large reward at the end of every week, or season that encourages people to play. So if you decide to "smurf" that hurts your chance at getting those top prizes, not like TD where you can smurf in most events and not hurt your chances at getting the next great prize car.

    I REALLY like this game and only want it to succeed, despite me being negative the past few posts, I apologize. I want to see this game succeed and stay interested in it which is why I'm offering strong opinions. 
  • BugattiBugatti Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bucks73 said:
    Bugatti said:
    I think they need to combine the servers and just make it full random, Couldn't be worse then it is now lol
    I suspect that its correct on the not enough 20K+ people to fill the servers, but that is not the fault of the players in the 10-20K bracket.  If you bring in hard floors and stop smurfing, then you have to have a solution to counter this new problem.

    I don't mind the combined servers to make it random as I 100% agree it couldn't be worse than now and would love to end up in a league with you just knowing you'd be happy to help a forum guy out. I think the issue is that the server delays and drop outs would increase like the bad old days.

    I'm sure this topic is on their radar and if they could just throw me a bone to say that they have a solution coming in the next month or so that would keep me hanging in there!
    They could just make the servers share the info between all of them,  it's not like this is live racing. All it is doing is storing our ghost from each race, now if it was live 1 on 1 racing i could see being a delay. This can't be that hard to setup.
  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    th1318 said:

    I REALLY like this game and only want it to succeed, despite me being negative the past few posts, I apologize. I want to see this game succeed and stay interested in it which is why I'm offering strong opinions. 
    Same here.  I want to keep playing (and spending) but I'm on the borderline at the minute as it's become very uncompetitive in my tier with no solution in sight (so far, I stand to be corrected).  In fact what was a solution to stop smurfing, has had a worse effect, admittedly on one particular group/tier/type of player but a group that is only growing.  And that's he problem.  They will not end up the same level as those top guys but those top guys being in the same league will just take the top places and people start dropping away.

    So just sharing as one thing the Hutch guys do well is hear constructive feedback.
  • BugattiBugatti Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bucks73 said:
    th1318 said:

    I REALLY like this game and only want it to succeed, despite me being negative the past few posts, I apologize. I want to see this game succeed and stay interested in it which is why I'm offering strong opinions. 
    Same here.  I want to keep playing (and spending) but I'm on the borderline at the minute as it's become very uncompetitive in my tier with no solution in sight (so far, I stand to be corrected).  In fact what was a solution to stop smurfing, has had a worse effect, admittedly on one particular group/tier/type of player but a group that is only growing.  And that's he problem.  They will not end up the same level as those top guys but those top guys being in the same league will just take the top places and people start dropping away.

    So just sharing as one thing the Hutch guys do well is hear constructive feedback.
    When it becomes that hard to be competitive ,maybe hutch should maybe think about making bots for the higher brackets that people might actually have a chance at. 
    My concern is there is gonna come a time soon when we are all gonna have similar or exact same hands, then what? 
  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    Bugatti said:
    Bucks73 said:
    th1318 said:

    I REALLY like this game and only want it to succeed, despite me being negative the past few posts, I apologize. I want to see this game succeed and stay interested in it which is why I'm offering strong opinions. 
    Same here.  I want to keep playing (and spending) but I'm on the borderline at the minute as it's become very uncompetitive in my tier with no solution in sight (so far, I stand to be corrected).  In fact what was a solution to stop smurfing, has had a worse effect, admittedly on one particular group/tier/type of player but a group that is only growing.  And that's he problem.  They will not end up the same level as those top guys but those top guys being in the same league will just take the top places and people start dropping away.

    So just sharing as one thing the Hutch guys do well is hear constructive feedback.
    When it becomes that hard to be competitive ,maybe hutch should maybe think about making bots for the higher brackets that people might actually have a chance at. 
    My concern is there is gonna come a time soon when we are all gonna have similar or exact same hands, then what? 
    I think Bots for the dailies would be a good start. The best hands will still win, but it gives a chance for the lesser hands to at least farm the boards. Yes, that means people not spending as much buying low end packs, but better that than players leaving. 

    Also appreciate @Bugatti having feedback here from the perspective of a player who doesn’t have this issue as such and is at the other end of the scale, much appreciated mate. 
  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    Hi guys at Hutch, just wondering if there was any feedback on this topic?

    Cheers
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bugatti said:
    I think they need to combine the servers and just make it full random, Couldn't be worse then it is now lol
    There was an idea floated before regarding separate event times. I like the idea of world servers, and two event start times.

    Lets say 4am, 4pm GMT. Choose the time that suits you. Event runs for 24, 48, or 72 hours.

    The only issue with that would be the time it would take from phone to server and back when clicking race. 

    I am currently super bored. I am a grinder though, so I compete in the events i have a chance of a ceramic. The others i just set my ghost hand and leave it.

    Daily, I can't even smurf for a plastic anymore. Theres way fewer than 60 players in there.
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So Eric has a second profile? I just don't understand why.
  • TGPDTGPD Posts: 6,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another thing is having 2 accounts of the same person feeding each other wins. I don't know how much this has gone yet, but I've seen a few...
  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    So Eric has a second profile? I just don't understand why.
    I guess because he's bored of just winning first prize and now wants first and second, especially where there is only a top 2 CF pack for example.

    Technically nothing wrong with it I guess?  Just annoying for other players, but whatever.  He pays his way x 2 now, Hutch get paid x 2 now, it's a business after all.  

    I'm just concerned that Hutch are relying on new manufacturers packs for interest vs the gaming experience as it's not fun, when you pass 10K trophies.

    What's hilarious is the other post from that guy about being on 3K trophies and having guys with 6 - 7K trophies coming into his league.  Imagine his rant when he gets to 10K trophies and this issue is still not fixed.

    At least I was constructive and polite with my post on the same issue.  I might get ignored like him.  But I was constructive and polite.  I'll sleep better knowing that...
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eric might spend alot, but I guarantee if the majority of the player base gets bored and quits, the game will die.

    It's good to get a polite discourse going with Hutch on this, if they come here and respond that is. For our part we should try to come up with ideas for Hutch, outline pros and cons and make life easier for them, and help get the right ideas implemented.

    Two event times was one idea i liked for fixing the Asian event time problem. If Hutch can have wider reaching servers, maybe worldwide or at least two hemispheres or something that could be incorporated with the 2 event start times to create varied brackets with better player separation.


  • Hutch_GsearchHutch_Gsearch Posts: 2,581 admin
    @RobGripes I guarantee that Hutch will listen, especially when it is constructive and polite.  They have implemented so many things that we, on this forum, have offered to Hutch to improve this game in a positive manner.
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gsearch said:
    @RobGripes I guarantee that Hutch will listen, especially when it is constructive and polite.  They have implemented so many things that we, on this forum, have offered to Hutch to improve this game in a positive manner.
    Yep, i know. I'm confident that they will. But i understand they are a small team and so therefore one thread might slip through the net from time to time. I know their intentions are good.
  • CharlieRCharlieR Posts: 498 ✭✭✭✭
    i don't get this at all:
    a) for me nothing has changed since they have disabled smurfing
    b) now i understood why there are so many rq limited events - they are mitigating this problem with RQ limited events, where spending does notatter and you race with accesible cars
  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    CharlieR said:
    i don't get this at all:
    a) for me nothing has changed since they have disabled smurfing
    b) now i understood why there are so many rq limited events - they are mitigating this problem with RQ limited events, where spending does notatter and you race with accesible cars
    I agree on the second part being an attempt to fix it, but it doesn’t make any difference except for events that are limited to super rares and below. Maybe ultra rares too. 

    Anything that doesn’t have class restrictrions  don’t work with the RQ limits as those guys use 3 maxed out S class cars and 2 whatever. I appreciate that it was an idea meant to help though. 

    And the the difference is those guys have so many maxed S class cars that they are ready for every event and criteria, vs lesser experienced or spending players who might spend the whole event fusing. Or like me, I have a solid line up of S class cars but I don’t have the resources to upgrade them. Because I start using my limited range of A class cars and then next event I have nothing to use in that second car slot

    One solution, and I’m sure I’ll get a few ‘disagrees’ here, is setting cars with a ‘base RQ’ eg a Chiron starts at RQ30. But with every stage upgrade it goes up an RQ. So if I’ve done my maths right, a maxed RQ30 class car ends up being RQ39. You would have to raise the event RQ limits a bit because you have to allow people to still use them, and be motivated to upgrade them too. It just stops 5 maxed  Chrions in Dailies for example. 

    The issue is thats nit fair on players who have spent money already to get to that point, and Hutch might be concerned it doesn’t encourage people to spend more money on trying to get fusing material. So I get that idea has issues too

    You could run events that are based on the number of upgrades per car plus RQ (as per current standards), no idea how that would work. 

    Or the easist solution still is adding more realistic and fair tiers. Not this current 10k to a billion trophy points matching. 

    Im desperate to want to help find a solution to keep playing (and spending)
  • TopDivesTopDives Posts: 752 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Smurfing is not the problem, it is the causation. The reason(s) why people smurf is the problem. 
    Fixing or trying to fix the causation does not solve the problem. 

  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    TopDives said:
    Smurfing is not the problem, it is the causation. The reason(s) why people smurf is the problem. 
    Fixing or trying to fix the causation does not solve the problem. 

    So what are you saying the problem is?
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's what I was wondering. And the fix for it too please.
  • TopDivesTopDives Posts: 752 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    @Bucks73
    Incentive to win. The return is lower than what you spend in most cases. At least in my case. Current Style icon event is a good example right now. I know i will not win the CF for sure. I might have a chance to win the ceramic but is it worth it?
    For example, I could upgrade a few cars to be competitive (even then without a guarantee that i would win the Tier 2 prize). So there is a higher yield when i smurf instead of racing. 

    @RobGripes
    There are so many good ideas posted all the time. I don't know if these are THE solution or part of it, or just stupid ideas alltogether but: Better prizes even for daily, more top tier events, eliminate trophies all together or at least change the current tier trophy system where a weak player is not in the same league with a very strong player. 

    Just my two cents. Let me know what you guys think. 

    Edit: Also, i can't believe i forgot that. Ending times. For some, the events end late at night or when they are asleep. So they have no chance of winning the prize so again it is not worth the investment in upgrades since they have no fighting chance. Therefore smurfing gives again a higher yield. Events should end at the same time for everyone in order to be fair and give everyone a chance, but from a technical perspective implementing that is a different story. 
  • Bucks73Bucks73 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭
    TopDives said:
    @Bucks73
    Incentive to win. The return is lower than what you spend in most cases. At least in my case. Current Style icon event is a good example right now. I know i will not win the CF for sure. I might have a chance to win the ceramic but is it worth it?
    For example, I could upgrade a few cars to be competitive (even then without a guarantee that i would win the Tier 2 prize). So there is a higher yield when i smurf instead of racing. 

    @RobGripes
    There are so many good ideas posted all the time. I don't know if these are THE solution or part of it, or just stupid ideas alltogether but: Better prizes even for daily, more top tier events, eliminate trophies all together or at least change the current tier trophy system where a weak player is not in the same league with a very strong player. 

    Just my two cents. Let me know what you guys think. 

    Edit: Also, i can't believe i forgot that. Ending times. For some, the events end late at night or when they are asleep. So they have no chance of winning the prize so again it is not worth the investment in upgrades since they have no fighting chance. Therefore smurfing gives again a higher yield. Events should end at the same time for everyone in order to be fair and give everyone a chance, but from a technical perspective implementing that is a different story. 
    I kind of get where you are coming from but this is also my point. You wouldn’t need to spend over the top amounts to be competitive against guys with 70k points who have been building their garages for a long time for a chance to win the CF pack, if you were playing against fairly matched trophy counts. In 99% of the cases, the garage of a high trophy count player matches their trophy count and same with a 3k trophy player and 10k player and so on. 

    You might spend a little bit if you were confident of winning or at least having a good chance vs you aren’t going to spend a cent when you know you are no chance going up against 30 - 70k trophy guys and their line ups. 

    So Hutch doesn’t get any revenue, and eventually lose players who lose interest in just farming. Which isn’t even easy or sometimes possible in daily events when you are in a group of only 5 guys and they all have maxed S class garages. 

    So im now even coming at it from the point that surely they would make more revenue by making people believe it’s worthwhile to spend money for a bit of gold to possibly win an event vs not spending at all when it’s impossible. 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    I was making about 80k a day from farming boards, now at 4700 trophies I'm making about 20k! This includes the event prize money.

    So in game cash is even drying up so can't buy ceramics. I am winning maybe 4 ceramics a week. All of this equals a super bored gamer
  • TopDivesTopDives Posts: 752 ✭✭✭✭
     
    I kind of get where you are coming from but this is also my point. You wouldn’t need to spend over the top amounts to be competitive against guys with 70k points who have been building their garages for a long time for a chance to win the CF pack, if you were playing against fairly matched trophy counts. In 99% of the cases, the garage of a high trophy count player matches their trophy count and same with a 3k trophy player and 10k player and so on. 

    You might spend a little bit if you were confident of winning or at least having a good chance vs you aren’t going to spend a cent when you know you are no chance going up against 30 - 70k trophy guys and their line ups. 

    So Hutch doesn’t get any revenue, and eventually lose players who lose interest in just farming. Which isn’t even easy or sometimes possible in daily events when you are in a group of only 5 guys and they all have maxed S class garages. 

    So im now even coming at it from the point that surely they would make more revenue by making people believe it’s worthwhile to spend money for a bit of gold to possibly win an event vs not spending at all when it’s impossible. 
    Exactly. A racing game should be about racing.

  • TopDivesTopDives Posts: 752 ✭✭✭✭
    RobGripes said:
    I was making about 80k a day from farming boards, now at 4700 trophies I'm making about 20k! This includes the event prize money.

    So in game cash is even drying up so can't buy ceramics. I am winning maybe 4 ceramics a week. All of this equals a super bored gamer
    That is not good. 4 ceramics a week??? That's really nothing and as time passes you will be getting less and less competitive. 
  • RobGripesRobGripes Posts: 2,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was buying about 1 cash ceramic a day.

    Now though i can't afford that. My IG cash reserves have been depleted upgrading existing garage cars for the events (a lot of my cars are usually upgraded already but recently I've needed deploy rarely used stocks)
  • TGPDTGPD Posts: 6,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the prize board cash payout could be higher, maybe 800 a card, like before RQ150...
  • NiurktNiurkt Posts: 125 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, give them super bots with Buggatis and other strong cars.
    Dailies bots should be like a Challenge last rounds, where need think how to win.
    Maybe limit RQ in dailies then you fight agains bots. And who think smarter wins points
  • mauro07mauro07 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And a respawn of prizes in campaign?.. so people can use some cars that don't use usually (maybe put some level of RQ restriction for campaign difficult?) and all players can grind resources to grown up garage and cars...
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