That begs the question - what about rq30 quattro s1? Will i need to spend hundreds to find out it is ****? I get that you are a small team and with so many cars you can drop the ball occasionally, but this is a prize car so i suggest you people do some more testing to avoid such fiasco in the future.. Here is a tip - you have featured blue Bugatti prize car in challenge and it was total ****, so you can begin with this one..
I totally agree
Regarding the Veyron Grand Sport, I guess it will perform similar to the regular Veyron 16.4 (the silver one) if not even slightly worse, because of its additional weight (I don't even know why it does 0-60 by 0.1 secs faster than all the others lol). I'm not really sure if its acceleration curve is correct when compared to its real life counterpart, but in-game at least it seems to accelerate quickly to 100mph then it gets slower and then faster again at the top end
Not being a programmer, I don't have our simulation available for me to test personally, and we're well outside of work hours at this point, so I just did some personal testing on the 1/4m ice challenge in Finland 9 as those drag race results looked crazy.
Here's the results, all cars are 4WD, sorted by increasing weight:
You can see the time correlates quite well with weight, and not at all well with 0-60 speed.
So in the simulation, I conclude that the extra traction gained by having extra weight has a much more significant effect on the car's ability to accelerate than the power implied by the 0-60 time. More powerful but lighter cars can't get the benefit of their power without losing traction, so they have to go slower.
The tire type helps on corners obviously, but doesn't seem to have much effect on drags, if any. I'll look to confirm if that's the case tomorrow.
Tire type should definitely have an effect on drags. I'm not sure why it doesn't (and wouldn't).
We know that slicks on hairpin snow won't even start the race, but somehow performance (not a direct comparison true) tires beat offroad in a straight line on ICE? Hmmm..
also we can add the panamera now to the list of Dakar kills
Tire type should definitely have an effect on drags. I'm not sure why it doesn't (and wouldn't).
We know that slicks on hairpin snow won't even start the race, but somehow performance (not a direct comparison true) tires beat offroad in a straight line on ICE? Hmmm..
also we can add the panamera now to the list of Dakar kills
Further Testing, since I was bored. Since hill climbs are generally won by heavy vehicles, we can tell that it does decent for it's weight. It's still not a stellar outcome, though.
the only exception where more weight could be better is on snow since the gearing effect could work better in combination with snow tires. but since we don't have snow tires...
in fact from Tim's testings it seems acceleration on loose terrains is only about the deposited acceleration times, weight and drivetype. tires don't matter at all.
Of course TD doesn't need to be an accurate simulation but it should behave within Newton's laws.
@HeissRod if you could now do the same testing with the same cars on a hill climb with bumps, let's say wet dirt, that would bring a nice conclusion about the importance of ride high. Are you still bored?
Further Testing, since I was bored. Since hill climbs are generally won by heavy vehicles, we can tell that it does decent for it's weight. It's still not a stellar outcome, though.
Another line for the table... the Range Rover SVR at 333. 0-60 of 4.2 and weight of 2253. So 0.1 'slower' than its RR V8 sibling but heavier. It does it in 14.83. So worse than the slower and lighter SS.
But it gets really weird on wet dirt hill climb. RR V8 has a respectable 33.80. SVR? 40.20! Errr what? I actually thought the damn thing was going to DNF at one point.
I’m not a technical guy, but I think I can speak on behalf of 99% of the Dakar owners, that this car needs to be readjusted or else it’s a trash, or better call it a fraud.
I guess it lost because it was stock? (can a rally car even be considered stock?) But by 140 pts???
That is just ridiculous. That Audi has little more than half the power, the same mass, no TC or ABS and performance tyres.
That result pretty much proves it’s a huge error as there’s nothing that can be argued to be the reason for the loss.
People basically bought this car in real money. Must be fixed or refunds will be in order.
Interestingly, I saw another poster complaining that the el Camino now beats the Monte Carlo in wet drags. Perhaps the main issue is the surface / tyre response on straight-line courses? I had noticed some surprising drag results since the Mazda update myself.
Okay, we discussed this and did some more testing.
First, in-game, tire type does make a difference in a non-asphalt drag race. Testing in-game, if we take a car with off-road tires and put it against an the exact same car with performance tires on an ice or snow drag race, the off-road tires win.
Second, weight really does help when traction is low. I think the bit of physics quoted by @hillclimber only applies where there is perfect traction. When traction is extremely low (like on snow or especially ice), you can accelerate faster without wheelspin if you have more weight. Once you have enough weight to accelerate without any danger of wheelspin, then additional weight will slow you down as the same force produces a smaller acceleration on a larger mass. So there's a kind of sweet-spot.
I believe this explains the poor off-road drag race results for the Dakar, and indeed all the other weird drag race results in off-road conditions people have reported for a while.
On the hill climbs, the above effect also applies a little bit, and that's probably one thing helping the Audis as they are very heavy, but obviously the down-side of more weight is more pronounced when you're trying to push it uphill, so it's more nuanced.
In-game we have a 'hill climb bonus' which tries to capture various things about a car that would make it better on rough terrain, such as having short overhang, and/or extremely high ground clearance. This was in general applied to all SUVs and Pickups, hence the Pikes Peak (body type SUV) getting it and not the Dakar (body type Coupe). Looking at both those cars specifically, it's clear both are wrong in that regard: the Pikes Peak has enormous overhang and low ground clearance, so doesn't warrant the Hill Climb bonus; the Dakar has a high ride height and definitely should get it.
TL;DR Dakar is bad at off-road drags due to low mass, this is how the physics of the resolver (and real life) works. Dakar is bad at hill climbs because it wasn't given the 'hill climb bonus' that it should have. This will be fixed. Pikes Peak is better at hill climb than it should be because it was given the 'hill climb bonus' due to having an SUV body type, but being low this is incorrect. This will be fixed too.
Okay, we discussed this and did some more testing.
First, in-game, tire type does make a difference in a non-asphalt drag race. Testing in-game, if we take a car with off-road tires and put it against an the exact same car with performance tires on an ice or snow drag race, the off-road tires win.
Second, weight really does help when traction is low. I think the bit of physics quoted by @hillclimber only applies where there is perfect traction. When traction is extremely low (like on snow or especially ice), you can accelerate faster without wheelspin if you have more weight. Once you have enough weight to accelerate without any danger of wheelspin, then additional weight will slow you down as the same force produces a smaller acceleration on a larger mass. So there's a kind of sweet-spot.
I believe this explains the poor off-road drag race results for the Dakar, and indeed all the other weird drag race results in off-road conditions people have reported for a while.
On the hill climbs, the above effect also applies a little bit, and that's probably one thing helping the Audis as they are very heavy, but obviously the down-side of more weight is more pronounced when you're trying to push it uphill, so it's more nuanced.
In-game we have a 'hill climb bonus' which tries to capture various things about a car that would make it better on rough terrain, such as having short overhang, and/or extremely high ground clearance. This was in general applied to all SUVs and Pickups, hence the Pikes Peak (body type SUV) getting it and not the Dakar (body type Coupe). Looking at both those cars specifically, it's clear both are wrong in that regard: the Pikes Peak has enormous overhang and low ground clearance, so doesn't warrant the Hill Climb bonus; the Dakar has a high ride height and definitely should get it.
TL;DR Dakar is bad at off-road drags due to low mass, this is how the physics of the resolver (and real life) works. Dakar is bad at hill climbs because it wasn't given the 'hill climb bonus' that it should have. This will be fixed. Pikes Peak is better at hill climb than it should be because it was given the 'hill climb bonus' due to having an SUV body type, but being low this is incorrect. This will be fixed too.
Nerf on the pikes seems a bit harsh. Are there any other tracks that get an SUV bonus that it will now be useless on too?
Regarding weight: traction “increase” in slippery conditions is because of the pressure (mass/area) not weight. If we would add some extra weight on a truck we will increase a bit the traction between tire and road which will result in less wheelspin. Off road tires do exactly that, minimize the area of the tire to increase the pressure and get good traction. The 2.5 tones SUVs and trucks use much bigger (in terms of area) tires than a lightweight Rallye car but both should be optimized to the drivetrain and vehicle details. So to summarize, more weight equals more traction only if you assume the cars use identical tire profile (which is certainly not possible!). The printed value on the cards shows the acceleration on dry tarmac - if we move any vehicles in dirt, then the off road tires will be the less affected, both in acceleration and cornering grip. The acceleration in tarmac has already factored in the tire type (so for example say we use the Dakar with slicks, we could achieve better acceleration than the 3.3).
Bottomline, the explaination provided by Tim is even more worrying than a vehicle not working as intended. It shows the whole physics used in the game might be flawed.
While your explanation of the drag results is appreciated, surely you can’t agree with the results? It seems odd road tyres need a traction boost on ice to me. Can’t be right that a few extra kilos offset the advantage from perf- off?
I assume the SUV bonus helps a bit in the motocross as well as the Hill Climbs.
It's correct that the next question is what should be the relative impact of tires vs. more weight. One thing to note is that these weight differences are huge. In my tests, the 959 Dakar and S8 Plus have the same 0-60 time, off-road vs. performance tires, but the S8 Plus has almost 50% more weight - and the overall result is that the Dakar is slower by about 6%.
I assume the SUV bonus helps a bit in the motocross as well as the Hill Climbs.
It's correct that the next question is what should be the relative impact of tires vs. more weight. One thing to note is that these weight differences are huge. In my tests, the 959 Dakar and S8 Plus have the same 0-60 time, off-road vs. performance tires, but the S8 Plus has almost 50% more weight - and the overall result is that the Dakar is slower by about 6%.
And the 1/4 mile drag Vs the carrera 4??1274kg Dakar Vs 1351kg 911. Dakar with over a second lower 0-60 time.
To fix a car you use a nerfing solution ? I can't believe it...
You said that the 959 Dakar is bad on off-road drags due to the low mass, but the MG Metro 6R4 is 300 kgs lighter !!!!
You nerf the Pikes Peak but this is not the problem (I don't have a Pikes Peak for information...) The Pikes Peak is better than the 959 Dakar on Hillclimb because the Dakar is totally **** on this track and not because the Pikes Peak is too impressive on Hillclimb !
You are going totally in the WRONG way ! So if one of your child at school take a bad evaluation you don't encourage him, you punish all your others children because they have better evaluations... Great policy
If THIS is the solution, you can't imagine how disapointed I am from Hutch.
holy sh... Your physics suck and you decide not to fix it. Nice policy.
1st: fix it, so that tires are relevant in drag too.
In real a snow tire destroys everything on ice and snow! Even with AWD Audis are useless in snow in reallife, without proper snow tires!
2nd: adjust your weight is better for traction formular. More mass = more traction is ok. But at the moment there is wrong modifier in it.
3rd: really look at all cars and its bonuses and the its ride height. Treat tham equally. The Pikes could be low. A pikes peak race has no real offroad parts. But rally cars should be mid height. That the Pikes get the SUV bonus is ok. Its gets diminished by the fact that its low. If you calculations are correct. But they are not at the moment.
Guys , thats how Hutch rolls sadly. When a car underperforms , they are nerfing other cars.. they did it many times before sadly.
I'm kinda done with this way of handling issues with cars. People are spending loads of money to upgrade and to win cars , and hutch just throws in the nerf hammer here and there to ''fix'' the problems of cars that underperform. In the meanwhile the playerbase just have to deal with this ****.
Great point on the MG Metro 6R4 - something else must be going on there. Will check into that next.
Since you are going to be looking into this issue, it would be great if you look into the hill climb bug before nerfing every other car that is not the Dakar. I strongly believe that it is directly related to all this issue, besides the fact that the 959 Dakar is broken of course.
Yeah I can confirm that the Pikes Peak is not too good on Hill climbs because of its height and gets beaten by all the Porsche SUVs (that's as far as my testing goes in the Daily Event + the Mercedes 6x6 I believe beats the Porsches usually) anyways.
I assume the SUV bonus helps a bit in the motocross as well as the Hill Climbs.
It's correct that the next question is what should be the relative impact of tires vs. more weight. One thing to note is that these weight differences are huge. In my tests, the 959 Dakar and S8 Plus have the same 0-60 time, off-road vs. performance tires, but the S8 Plus has almost 50% more weight - and the overall result is that the Dakar is slower by about 6%.
And the 1/4 mile drag Vs the carrera 4??1274kg Dakar Vs 1351kg 911. Dakar with over a second lower 0-60 time.
I also really wonder why Hutch hasn't commented on drag vs Carrera. Something is really wrong with this one.
Comments
Maybe the 959 Dakar is the most expensive smarfing car in TD ! 🤣
Regarding the Veyron Grand Sport, I guess it will perform similar to the regular Veyron 16.4 (the silver one) if not even slightly worse, because of its additional weight (I don't even know why it does 0-60 by 0.1 secs faster than all the others lol). I'm not really sure if its acceleration curve is correct when compared to its real life counterpart, but in-game at least it seems to accelerate quickly to 100mph then it gets slower and then faster again at the top end
Here's the results, all cars are 4WD, sorted by increasing weight:
Car / Tune / 0-60 / weight / time
RS 2000 / 969 / 4.0 / 1100 / 17.00
Evo IV / 969 / 4.1 / 1258 / 16.86
959 Dakar / 333 / 3.1 / 1274 / 16.83
S8 Plus / 969 / 3.1 / 1855 / 15.9
Panamera Turbo / 333 / 3.7 / 1901 / 16.43
Range Rover 5.0 / 996 / 4.1 / 2097 / 15.7
Merc G 63 / 969 / 4.3 / 2377 / 15.76
You can see the time correlates quite well with weight, and not at all well with 0-60 speed.
So in the simulation, I conclude that the extra traction gained by having extra weight has a much more significant effect on the car's ability to accelerate than the power implied by the 0-60 time. More powerful but lighter cars can't get the benefit of their power without losing traction, so they have to go slower.
The tire type helps on corners obviously, but doesn't seem to have much effect on drags, if any. I'll look to confirm if that's the case tomorrow.
also we can add the panamera now to the list of Dakar kills
source: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-3/Finding-Acceleration
the only exception where more weight could be better is on snow since the gearing effect could work better in combination with snow tires. but since we don't have snow tires...
in fact from Tim's testings it seems acceleration on loose terrains is only about the deposited acceleration times, weight and drivetype. tires don't matter at all.
Of course TD doesn't need to be an accurate simulation but it should behave within Newton's laws.
@HeissRod if you could now do the same testing with the same cars on a hill climb with bumps, let's say wet dirt, that would bring a nice conclusion about the importance of ride high. Are you still bored?
So 0.1 'slower' than its RR V8 sibling but heavier. It does it in 14.83. So worse than the slower and lighter SS.
But it gets really weird on wet dirt hill climb. RR V8 has a respectable 33.80. SVR? 40.20! Errr what? I actually thought the damn thing was going to DNF at one point.
That result pretty much proves it’s a huge error as there’s nothing that can be argued to be the reason for the loss.
People basically bought this car in real money. Must be fixed or refunds will be in order.
Interestingly, I saw another poster complaining that the el Camino now beats the Monte Carlo in wet drags. Perhaps the main issue is the surface / tyre response on straight-line courses? I had noticed some surprising drag results since the Mazda update myself.
First, in-game, tire type does make a difference in a non-asphalt drag race. Testing in-game, if we take a car with off-road tires and put it against an the exact same car with performance tires on an ice or snow drag race, the off-road tires win.
Second, weight really does help when traction is low. I think the bit of physics quoted by @hillclimber only applies where there is perfect traction. When traction is extremely low (like on snow or especially ice), you can accelerate faster without wheelspin if you have more weight. Once you have enough weight to accelerate without any danger of wheelspin, then additional weight will slow you down as the same force produces a smaller acceleration on a larger mass. So there's a kind of sweet-spot.
I believe this explains the poor off-road drag race results for the Dakar, and indeed all the other weird drag race results in off-road conditions people have reported for a while.
On the hill climbs, the above effect also applies a little bit, and that's probably one thing helping the Audis as they are very heavy, but obviously the down-side of more weight is more pronounced when you're trying to push it uphill, so it's more nuanced.
In-game we have a 'hill climb bonus' which tries to capture various things about a car that would make it better on rough terrain, such as having short overhang, and/or extremely high ground clearance. This was in general applied to all SUVs and Pickups, hence the Pikes Peak (body type SUV) getting it and not the Dakar (body type Coupe). Looking at both those cars specifically, it's clear both are wrong in that regard: the Pikes Peak has enormous overhang and low ground clearance, so doesn't warrant the Hill Climb bonus; the Dakar has a high ride height and definitely should get it.
TL;DR
Dakar is bad at off-road drags due to low mass, this is how the physics of the resolver (and real life) works.
Dakar is bad at hill climbs because it wasn't given the 'hill climb bonus' that it should have. This will be fixed.
Pikes Peak is better at hill climb than it should be because it was given the 'hill climb bonus' due to having an SUV body type, but being low this is incorrect. This will be fixed too.
The printed value on the cards shows the acceleration on dry tarmac - if we move any vehicles in dirt, then the off road tires will be the less affected, both in acceleration and cornering grip. The acceleration in tarmac has already factored in the tire type (so for example say we use the Dakar with slicks, we could achieve better acceleration than the 3.3).
Bottomline, the explaination provided by Tim is even more worrying than a vehicle not working as intended. It shows the whole physics used in the game might be flawed.
It's correct that the next question is what should be the relative impact of tires vs. more weight. One thing to note is that these weight differences are huge. In my tests, the 959 Dakar and S8 Plus have the same 0-60 time, off-road vs. performance tires, but the S8 Plus has almost 50% more weight - and the overall result is that the Dakar is slower by about 6%.
Tell me, you can't be serious ?
To fix a car you use a nerfing solution ? I can't believe it...
You said that the 959 Dakar is bad on off-road drags due to the low mass, but the MG Metro 6R4 is 300 kgs lighter !!!!
You nerf the Pikes Peak but this is not the problem (I don't have a Pikes Peak for information...) The Pikes Peak is better than the 959 Dakar on Hillclimb because the Dakar is totally **** on this track and not because the Pikes Peak is too impressive on Hillclimb !
You are going totally in the WRONG way ! So if one of your child at school take a bad evaluation you don't encourage him, you punish all your others children because they have better evaluations... Great policy
If THIS is the solution, you can't imagine how disapointed I am from Hutch.
If this is Hutch solution, I think this game is not a game I want to play anymore...
I have a feeling that the resolution for this issue has the potential to lure away some players off the game, including me.
When a car underperforms , they are nerfing other cars.. they did it many times before sadly.
I'm kinda done with this way of handling issues with cars.
People are spending loads of money to upgrade and to win cars , and hutch just throws in the nerf hammer here and there to ''fix'' the problems of cars that underperform.
In the meanwhile the playerbase just have to deal with this ****.