959 Dakar Testing

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  • Ivo_KamburovIvo_Kamburov Posts: 788 ✭✭✭✭
    Knight said:
    That begs the question - what about rq30 quattro s1? Will i need to spend hundreds to find out it is ****? 
    I get that you are a small team and with so many cars you can drop the ball occasionally, but this is a prize car so i suggest you people do some more testing to avoid such fiasco in the future.. Here is a tip - you have featured blue Bugatti prize car in challenge and it was total ****, so you can begin with this one.. 
    I totally agree

    Regarding the Veyron Grand Sport, I guess it will perform similar to the regular Veyron 16.4 (the silver one) if not even slightly worse, because of its additional weight (I don't even know why it does 0-60 by 0.1 secs faster than all the others lol). I'm not really sure if its acceleration curve is correct when compared to its real life counterpart, but in-game at least it seems to accelerate quickly to 100mph then it gets slower and then faster again at the top end
  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 623 admin
    edited August 2018
    Not being a programmer, I don't have our simulation available for me to test personally, and we're well outside of work hours at this point, so I just did some personal testing on the 1/4m ice challenge in Finland 9 as those drag race results looked crazy.

    Here's the results, all cars are 4WD, sorted by increasing weight:

    Car                        / Tune / 0-60 / weight / time
    RS 2000               / 969 / 4.0 / 1100 / 17.00
    Evo IV                    / 969 / 4.1 / 1258 / 16.86
    959 Dakar            / 333 / 3.1 / 1274 / 16.83
    S8 Plus                 / 969 / 3.1 / 1855 / 15.9
    Panamera Turbo / 333 / 3.7 / 1901 / 16.43
    Range Rover 5.0 / 996 / 4.1 / 2097 / 15.7
    Merc G 63            / 969 / 4.3 / 2377 / 15.76

    You can see the time correlates quite well with weight, and not at all well with 0-60 speed.

    So in the simulation, I conclude that the extra traction gained by having extra weight has a much more significant effect on the car's ability to accelerate than the power implied by the 0-60 time. More powerful but lighter cars can't get the benefit of their power without losing traction, so they have to go slower.

    The tire type helps on corners obviously, but doesn't seem to have much effect on drags, if any. I'll look to confirm if that's the case tomorrow.
  • Destroyer2k11999Destroyer2k11999 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    Tire type should definitely have an effect on drags.  I'm not sure why it doesn't (and wouldn't).
    We know that slicks on hairpin snow won't even start the race, but somehow performance (not a direct comparison true) tires beat offroad in a straight line on ICE? Hmmm..  

    also we can add the panamera now to the list of Dakar kills  :D
  • hillclimberhillclimber Posts: 2,155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    so far we can say from Tim's and HeissRod's testing that more weight is better. This is against the law of physics. More weight means more friction yes but it also means more mass to move. 

    source: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-3/Finding-Acceleration

    the only exception where more weight could be better is on snow since the gearing effect could work better in combination with snow tires. but since we don't have snow tires...

    in fact from Tim's testings it seems acceleration on loose terrains is only about the deposited acceleration times, weight and drivetype. tires don't matter at all.

    Of course TD doesn't need to be an accurate simulation but it should behave within Newton's laws.

    @HeissRod if you could now do the same testing with the same cars on a hill climb with bumps, let's say wet dirt, that would bring a nice conclusion about the importance of ride high. Are you still bored?  :#



  • bantel_catbantel_cat Posts: 895 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HeissRod said:
    Further Testing, since I was bored.  Since hill climbs are generally won by heavy vehicles, we can tell that it does decent for it's weight.  It's still not a stellar outcome, though.

     
    Another line for the table... the Range Rover SVR at 333. 0-60 of 4.2 and weight of 2253.
    So 0.1 'slower' than its RR V8 sibling but heavier. It does it in 14.83. So worse than the slower and lighter SS.

    But it gets really weird on wet dirt hill climb. RR V8 has a respectable 33.80. SVR? 40.20! Errr what? I actually thought the damn thing was going to DNF at one point.
  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 623 admin
    Okay, we discussed this and did some more testing.

    First, in-game, tire type does make a difference in a non-asphalt drag race. Testing in-game, if we take a car with off-road tires and put it against an the exact same car with performance tires on an ice or snow drag race, the off-road tires win.

    Second, weight really does help when traction is low. I think the bit of physics quoted by @hillclimber only applies where there is perfect traction. When traction is extremely low (like on snow or especially ice), you can accelerate faster without wheelspin if you have more weight. Once you have enough weight to accelerate without any danger of wheelspin, then additional weight will slow you down as the same force produces a smaller acceleration on a larger mass. So there's a kind of sweet-spot.

    I believe this explains the poor off-road drag race results for the Dakar, and indeed all the other weird drag race results in off-road conditions people have reported for a while.

    On the hill climbs, the above effect also applies a little bit, and that's probably one thing helping the Audis as they are very heavy, but obviously the down-side of more weight is more pronounced when you're trying to push it uphill, so it's more nuanced.

    In-game we have a 'hill climb bonus' which tries to capture various things about a car that would make it better on rough terrain, such as having short overhang, and/or extremely high ground clearance. This was in general applied to all SUVs and Pickups, hence the Pikes Peak (body type SUV) getting it and not the Dakar (body type Coupe). Looking at both those cars specifically, it's clear both are wrong in that regard: the Pikes Peak has enormous overhang and low ground clearance, so doesn't warrant the Hill Climb bonus; the Dakar has a high ride height and definitely should get it.

    TL;DR
    Dakar is bad at off-road drags due to low mass, this is how the physics of the resolver (and real life) works.
    Dakar is bad at hill climbs because it wasn't given the 'hill climb bonus' that it should have. This will be fixed.
    Pikes Peak is better at hill climb than it should be because it was given the 'hill climb bonus' due to having an SUV body type, but being low this is incorrect. This will be fixed too.
  • Sherby90Sherby90 Posts: 306 ✭✭✭
    So the drag part remains the same?
  • David_FookDavid_Fook Posts: 2,475 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    Okay, we discussed this and did some more testing.

    First, in-game, tire type does make a difference in a non-asphalt drag race. Testing in-game, if we take a car with off-road tires and put it against an the exact same car with performance tires on an ice or snow drag race, the off-road tires win.

    Second, weight really does help when traction is low. I think the bit of physics quoted by @hillclimber only applies where there is perfect traction. When traction is extremely low (like on snow or especially ice), you can accelerate faster without wheelspin if you have more weight. Once you have enough weight to accelerate without any danger of wheelspin, then additional weight will slow you down as the same force produces a smaller acceleration on a larger mass. So there's a kind of sweet-spot.

    I believe this explains the poor off-road drag race results for the Dakar, and indeed all the other weird drag race results in off-road conditions people have reported for a while.

    On the hill climbs, the above effect also applies a little bit, and that's probably one thing helping the Audis as they are very heavy, but obviously the down-side of more weight is more pronounced when you're trying to push it uphill, so it's more nuanced.

    In-game we have a 'hill climb bonus' which tries to capture various things about a car that would make it better on rough terrain, such as having short overhang, and/or extremely high ground clearance. This was in general applied to all SUVs and Pickups, hence the Pikes Peak (body type SUV) getting it and not the Dakar (body type Coupe). Looking at both those cars specifically, it's clear both are wrong in that regard: the Pikes Peak has enormous overhang and low ground clearance, so doesn't warrant the Hill Climb bonus; the Dakar has a high ride height and definitely should get it.

    TL;DR
    Dakar is bad at off-road drags due to low mass, this is how the physics of the resolver (and real life) works.
    Dakar is bad at hill climbs because it wasn't given the 'hill climb bonus' that it should have. This will be fixed.
    Pikes Peak is better at hill climb than it should be because it was given the 'hill climb bonus' due to having an SUV body type, but being low this is incorrect. This will be fixed too.
    Nerf on the pikes seems a bit harsh. Are there any other tracks that get an SUV bonus that it will now be useless on too?
  • David_FookDavid_Fook Posts: 2,475 ✭✭✭✭✭
    While your explanation of the drag results is appreciated, surely you can’t agree with the results? It seems odd road tyres need a traction boost on ice to me. Can’t be right that a few extra kilos offset the advantage from perf- off?
  • hillclimberhillclimber Posts: 2,155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    ~4.40 "adding weight (to a 4WD car) is only going to make things worse"





  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 623 admin
    I assume the SUV bonus helps a bit in the motocross as well as the Hill Climbs.

    It's correct that the next question is what should be the relative impact of tires vs. more weight. One thing to note is that these weight differences are huge. In my tests, the 959 Dakar and S8 Plus have the same 0-60 time, off-road vs. performance tires, but the S8 Plus has almost 50% more weight - and the overall result is that the Dakar is slower by about 6%. 
  • David_FookDavid_Fook Posts: 2,475 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hutch_Tim said:
    I assume the SUV bonus helps a bit in the motocross as well as the Hill Climbs.

    It's correct that the next question is what should be the relative impact of tires vs. more weight. One thing to note is that these weight differences are huge. In my tests, the 959 Dakar and S8 Plus have the same 0-60 time, off-road vs. performance tires, but the S8 Plus has almost 50% more weight - and the overall result is that the Dakar is slower by about 6%. 
    And the 1/4 mile drag Vs the carrera 4??1274kg Dakar Vs 1351kg 911. Dakar with over a second lower 0-60 time.
    Post edited by David_Fook on
  • Hutch_TimHutch_Tim Posts: 623 admin
    Great point on the MG Metro 6R4 - something else must be going on there. Will check into that next.
  • MSteeLMSteeL Posts: 921 ✭✭✭✭
    If this is the case, where can I send my refund tickets?
  • DjehoetieDjehoetie Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    Guys , thats how Hutch rolls sadly.  
    When a car underperforms , they are nerfing other cars.. they did it many times before sadly.    
      
    I'm kinda done with this way of handling issues with cars.  
    People are spending loads of money to upgrade and to win cars , and hutch just throws in the nerf hammer here and there to ''fix'' the problems of cars that underperform.    
    In the meanwhile the playerbase just have to deal with this ****.  





  • ATSR_997ATSR_997 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hutch_Tim said:
    Great point on the MG Metro 6R4 - something else must be going on there. Will check into that next.
    Since you are going to be looking into this issue, it would be great if you look into the hill climb bug before nerfing every other car that is not the Dakar. I strongly believe that it is directly related to all this issue, besides the fact that the 959 Dakar is broken of course.
  • Ivo_KamburovIvo_Kamburov Posts: 788 ✭✭✭✭
    Yeah I can confirm that the Pikes Peak is not too good on Hill climbs because of its height and gets beaten by all the Porsche SUVs (that's as far as my testing goes in the Daily Event + the Mercedes 6x6 I believe beats the Porsches usually) anyways. 
  • 43MK443MK4 Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TD01055 said:
    Hutch_Tim said:
    I assume the SUV bonus helps a bit in the motocross as well as the Hill Climbs.

    It's correct that the next question is what should be the relative impact of tires vs. more weight. One thing to note is that these weight differences are huge. In my tests, the 959 Dakar and S8 Plus have the same 0-60 time, off-road vs. performance tires, but the S8 Plus has almost 50% more weight - and the overall result is that the Dakar is slower by about 6%. 
    And the 1/4 mile drag Vs the carrera 4??1274kg Dakar Vs 1351kg 911. Dakar with over a second lower 0-60 time.
    I also really wonder why Hutch hasn't commented on drag vs Carrera. Something is really wrong with this one.
  • RysioRysio Posts: 392 ✭✭✭
    You all don't want to know what I think about this Dakar performance
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